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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

A Question of Britishness....

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth_Asabrush, Dec 15, 2002.

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  1. TheGhost

    TheGhost Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2002
    so i made a mistake. big deal, I was just trying to be nice, but you're a bit to sensitive it seems. way to generalize there pal.
     
  2. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    so i made a mistake. big deal, I was just trying to be nice, but you're a bit to sensitive it seems

    you really don't get it, do you ?

    go and study the history between England and Scotland then come back to this thread.

    I hate it when people say "England" when the mean "Britain"

    malkie
     
  3. TheGhost

    TheGhost Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jul 10, 2002
    being a bit egocentric aren't we? YOU hate it when people do that. last time I checked the world doesn't revolve around you. get over it already. I still think British folks are good people, and I'm always gonna think that.

    heck i still think you're a swell person even though you've taken the nice things i've stated here and completely dumped on them. I'm sorry you feel the way you do and im sorry so many of us Americans make that mistake that annoys you. I don't see why there has to be so much negativity and second guessing. I stated my opinion and it was a positive one. Why quarrel over petty things like a simple mistake. It's not the end of the universe.

    All I'm saying is, how about we just put this to rest. no sense in fighting on a message board over something as trivial as one person's opinion. cheers.
     
  4. imzadi

    imzadi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 19, 2000
    It's just the same as someone calling an American a Canadian, and possibly even worse because of the long history between the Scottish, English, Irish, and Welsh.

    I'm Australian and my ancestors were Irish, not British. It's common for Australians for be taken for English people when overseas, I know it's a little insulting. When you proud of your country/culture and people don't understand what distinguishes you, it's insulting.
     
  5. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    Thanks for your kind words Ghost but it is important to non English Britons that they are not referred to as English.

    I'm English and I also get a bit annoyed when people from other cultures refer to British as English. Yes, we are the dominant faction within the UK but there are other important and culturally relevant parts as well. :)
     
  6. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    Well, there are worse things to be called than English.

    I understand that it's upsetting for people who are not English to be referred to as such, but the poor guy was pounced on right after making a compliment.

    We Brits are supposed to be great at civility and tact, yet, instead of kind words to correct him, he was made out to be an idiot.

    Shame.

    - Scarlet.
     
  7. scum&villainy

    scum&villainy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 1999
    That's Scots for you

    heh
     
  8. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002

    Aww, Scots aren't so bad. I have a home near Stirling, and some of the girls from Stirling Uni are just great.

    *grin*

    - Scarlet.
     
  9. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    We Brits are supposed to be great at civility and tact, yet, instead of kind words to correct him, he was made out to be an idiot.

    It quite clearly states the difference between "Britain" and "England" at the beginning of the thread.

    I also made it clear in my early posts that it annoys me when people say "England" instead of "Britain", and that it further annoys me when people don't understand why the mistake annoys me.

    Then, this American wonders into the thread and does the exact two things that really annoy me.

    Either (a) he didn't actually bother to read the thread, or (b) he is trying to get a rise out of us.

    Either way, thats ground for being called an idiot (not that I did call him an idiot, or even suggest it)

    malkie
     
  10. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    It quite clearly states the difference between "Britain" and "England" at the beginning of the thread.

    It is entirely possible that he didn't understand it, or he didn't properly read the start. Neither of which makes him an idiot.

    I also made it clear in my early posts that it annoys me when people say "England" instead of "Britain", and that it further annoys me when people don't understand why the mistake annoys me.

    You could have told him so, after he made his post, in a much kinder way, wouldn't you say?

    Then, this America wonders into the thread and does the exact two things that really annoy me.

    You know what annoys me? People who pounce on others with righteous indignationand exclaim them to be an idiot, with all the force of Savanarola, when the person was making a compliment in the first place.

    Either (a) he didn't actually bother to read the thread, or (b) he is trying to get a rise out of us.

    Or (c), he made an honest and simple mistake.

    Either way, thats ground for being called an idiot (not that I did call him an idiot, or even suggest it)

    It's grounds to call him an idiot for making a mistake?

    He was complimenting us, for god's sake. He made a simple mistake. And you know what? It's pretty common. News flash: we don't run a quarter of the world any more, people have more things to be worried about than the specifics of the UK. You could have repeated yourself for him, and pointed out where he went wrong, then thanked him for his compliment.

    "Sometimes the first duty of intelligent men is the restatement of the obvious." - George Orwell.

    Who is the bigger idiot; the one who makes a simple mistake, or the one who hangs him for it?

    - Scarlet.
     
  11. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    (not that I did call him an idiot, or even suggest it)
     
  12. SCOTSSITHLORD

    SCOTSSITHLORD Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I definitely consider myself to be Scottish and feel uncomfortable with the very things which supposedly made the name Britain great in the first place.
    I think a lot of the chip on the shoulder mentality of many scots, to which I'm by no means immune myself, stems from the fact that we can conveniently blame the english for our own woes. By the very nature of the UK, England is going to dominate, not through any evil masterplan or ill will, but simply through weight of numbers.
    If scots want to be grown up about it, they should either accept the anglocentric nature of the UK and stop whining or my own preferred option, go for independence.
     
  13. Stoney-Wan-Kenobi

    Stoney-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    The whole England = Britain thing bugs me too, but I learnt (to my cost) that tarring all 'Americans' with the same brush is as equally offensive to them.

    I guess some people in Scotland should try forgetting what has happened in the past between Scotland and England, especially since it's outwith living memory. But whenever '1966' gets mentioned, the blood starts to boil...

    Maybe it's just my imagination, but would anyone else say that Scots are more likely to support the underdog than people from elsewhere?
     
  14. Uruk-hai

    Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2000
    I have an Irish girlfriend, she's from Dublin. She HATES being called British with a passion. I do it to her all the time because I know it gets a reaction.

    She used to share a flat with an Irish girl, two Scots and a Norwegian girl. I never realised how much the Irish and Scottish dislike England and the English until I started speaking to them. They even considered me "British" until I told them of my background. Weird.
     
  15. Stoney-Wan-Kenobi

    Stoney-Wan-Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2002
    Dublin isn't part of the UK though...
    OK, I'm gonna confuse myself now. Can someone explain to me the difference between the UK, Great Britain, and Britain? And does the term 'British' refer to all of these?
     
  16. Humble extra

    Humble extra Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 1999
    well........i guess the United Kingdom refers to the Act of Union of England and Scotland, sometime around 1700 i think.......and i guess wales, the ilse of man, the channel islands and such are all incorporated as royal possessions of England......

    Britain, Great Britain, or whatever, well i don't know their legal status.......but i guess its meant to be a grand identity for all inhabitants of the House of Windsor's european possessions........alot of countries in the modern period tried to create new national identities to include a wide range of peoples.........look at spain, germany, france........they all managed to get over their regional/national identities......perhaps they were trying to do the same for the british ilses
     
  17. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    I'm not clear on this myself..

    I believe Great Britain refers to the central landmass - Scotland, England and Wales.

    The United Kingdom refers to the Union - Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland and the channel islands.

    I believe that Britain is interchangeable with the United Kingdom, as opposed to interchangeable with Great Britain.

    - Scarlet.
     
  18. scum&villainy

    scum&villainy Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 8, 1999
    The semantics of the nation are steeped in all kinds of historical pettiness and are probably best left for academics and pedants to argue over. It's easiest to assume that Britain/Great Britain/UK is England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man.

    I'll agree with the earlier comment about the majority of anti-Englishness stemming from inferiority complexes amongst the other nations in the Union. History plays a part, of course it does, but it seems to me that many of the extreme nationalists loathe England and the English more than they do the Germans or the French. Weird. Especially given that they now have more of a say in the running of our country than we do theirs.

    As far as I've always been concerned, we're one nation divided only by accent.
     
  19. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    Eh, I consider us four seperate nations, with a strong, very centralised, union.

    I'd be happy to see Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland gain independence though, should they democratically decide to take it. I'd like to think they'd still remain in some kind of strong legal bond with England...

    Besides, it benefits them to do so. Where would Scotland, Wales and N. Ireland be economically without the rest of the UK? Or militarily, should there be aggression against them? Or culturally - we produce the majority of film, literature, drama and so on.

    I guess that isn't important to the rabid nationalists though. They hate us English (except, of course, when we're giving them tourist pounds ;)).

    - Scarlet.
     
  20. Silmarillion

    Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 1999
    I always thought the political entity was called the United Kingdom, while the geographical entity was called Great Britain?

    [edit] Apart from Northern Ireland being included in the UK of course...
     
  21. dAnakin_TheOne

    dAnakin_TheOne Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2002
    I agree with TheScarletBanner, I also consider the 4 nations as seperate nations.
    I am English and have never considered myself British. I was filling out my UCAS form the other week and something really pissed me off, it was when I was filling out my place of birth or nationality (I can't remember which one) but which ever one it was I couldn't be English whereas I could be Scottish, Welsh or British. Now thats just not right!
     
  22. Darth_Asabrush

    Darth_Asabrush Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2000
    The official title of our nation is The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. This means that Great Britain consists of England, Scotland and Wales (and the main Islands around it). Add Northern Ireland and you get the UK.

    The British Ises is a purely geographical term for the group of islands just off the north west coast of mainland Europe. ie: The UK, Eire (The Republic of Ireland) and surrounding islands.
     
  23. Auraveda

    Auraveda Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 5, 2001
    Well I can explain why some Americans get rather confused about the difference between England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland.

    Over here the educational system is somewhat uneven - some people recieve excellent educations, are aware of the histories of other countries, know their geography, and can speak something other than english. While others end up with only rudimentary instruction in American history, don't know anything about the history of other countries, and can't speak another language. Many Americans simply are not aware of the deep history and conflict between England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. I'm not saying Americans are inherently stupid, we just haven't been taught about these things.

    In most Americans' minds UK = England = Great Britian. Many would be suprised to learn that Scotland is part of that. And too many aren't even aware of Wales, they've heard of whales, but not Wales.

    If an American hasn't had a lot of contact with people speaking in a non-american accent then it is easy to confuse which accent is which. English, Welsh, Scottish, Irish, and Australian accents (not to mention all the various regional accents inside these countries) all kind of sound the same to an American who isn't familiar with them. Just like all the various accents found in America might blend together in the ear of an Englishmen or an Australian. Seriously, how well can you tell apart different American accents? Whenever I hear a non-American trying to do an American accent they usually sound like they're doing some sort of spastic John Wayne impression.

    So, to sum up, Americans don't make these mistakes because we don't care or don't like any of you. For the most part many Americans just don't know any better. It isn't in our sphere of experience. And most people tend to have little incentive to learn the differences. It isn't something that we deal with or are exposed to everyday.
     
  24. malkieD2

    malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 7, 2002
    I like your explaination Auraveda

    For our education system (the UK), world history is of extreme importance - we are what we are today as a product of our past.
    To understand the current geography of Europe of example, its important to understand the border changes made at the end of the First World War, and the Second World War.

    We are educated in other countries, but I don't think that you are in American schools.

    American history is very important in American schools, the result of which is that American school kids have a very good understanding of their own country. (for example I'm sure most American school kids could name all 50 states and all of the previous Presidents, while UK school kids would have trouble naming all the regions in their country, and their past Prime Minister)

    sheesh, *I'd* struggle to name all the PMs off the top of my head, and I'm not a school kid.

    The problem of a lack of education of the outside world (beyond the 50 states), is that you give off the impression that you don't think it exists, and even worse, that the rest of the world is irrevelant to America. This is disturbing.

    I suppose this is highlighted when an American confuses England and Britain, which would be an extreme faux paus in the UK.

    I think the solution would be a shift in the education system in the states to include more non-American topics. (and I'm not just meaning Europe)

    Anyways, this is slightly off topic, so I should redirect this thread towards being British.

    malkie

    p.s. an American friend of mine thought that Portugal was in Asia...........and he's a school teacher :eek:
     
  25. lavjoricso

    lavjoricso Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 25, 2001
    American understanding of the U.K is't as good as it could or perhaps should be.

    A friend of my Fathers once asked him how long it would take him to drive from Scotland to Ireland [face_laugh] .

    It's harmless though,and like many English people ( yes English,i carn't speak for the Scots and the Welsh ) there understanding of the United States and it's history isn't great either.

    I can understand how some many Americans don't understand the past history of England and Scotland and now Britain.

    As for the question,i see my self as English and not British.It's not some patriotic stance,im not a fan of that (and lot of Englands past is nothing to be proud about) it's down to having little or no contact with people from other parts of Britian.I've been to Scotland and Wales,but i have no day to day dealings with them.

    If Americans or anyone asks me where im from i answer England,if they ask if im British then thats fine to !!!


     
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