Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Pyrotek, Nov 28, 2011.

  1. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    For a Jedi like Qui-Gon, who's supposed to not be satisfied just being a thug enforcer for a corrupt bureaucracy, the Force should be all the authority he needs. No one's suggesting that Qui-Gon had the time or means to dismantle the entire slave industry of Tatooine, but how about at least trying to save the family that took you in and helped you out when you were stranded on a hostile planet? You took Jar Jar Binks with you, for crying out loud, what's stopping you from locking Watto in the closet while you escape with Anakin and his mom?

    If the money Qui-Gon offered was worthless, he might as well have just tried mind tricking Watto into giving them the part for free. Morally permissible or not, it's still essentially robbery. And if stealing from Watto isn't a moral problem, why not just steal his slaves and the part outright?

    The point is that Obi-Wan didn't just immediately start throwing the Force around to get his way. Even when Han was clearly swindling them, Obi-Wan still relied on his personal powers of persuasion over his Jedi powers. Qui-Gon didn't ask Boss Nass for a bongo, he just took it, and when Watto wasn't immediately forthcoming, he again just tried to use his powers to get what he wanted instead of even trying another way. I think Obi-Wan's situation was a lot more desperate than Qui-Gon's.
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Boss Nass- after a little influence
    "Speed us on our way."
    " Wesa speed you far away. Wesa give you ... bongo."



    There's a very good reason not to steal Anakin- he's implanted with a bomb. If he strays far enough away from Watto, he comes down with a bad case of exploding head.

    This is brought up in the novel- I think there might have been a line mentioning it in the film as well. Still, Qui-Gon could have searched for the deactivator wand.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 5, 2012
  3. beccatoria Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2006
    star 4
    Explosive slave tracking chip things?

    I think that was their narrative purpose, at least.
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  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I don't get the "worthless money" thing. All Watto has to do is hop on a ship to the nearest Republic world. Voila, the worthless money has now magically become valuable.
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  5. Eternal_Hero Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 1
    1. Qui Gon did try to save Shmi but Watto wouldn't have it; Qui Gon obviously interpreted that as meaning it was not "the will of the Force". Also, Shmi wants Anakin to move on, to "not look back". Lastly, as already mentioned, she's wired to explode if she "tries to escape".

    2. Have you even watched this film?

    Qui Gon: Be patient, an opportunity will present itself / Greed can be a powerful ally / Whenever you gamble, my friend, eventually you'll lose.

    The isn't about Anakin's mom, it's about Anakin. You are clearly nitpicking because you think the Jedi are "thug enforcers" and "a corrupt bureaucracy". This interpretation is so far from the text it would be laughed out of an English Lit class. The intentions of the author are clear: the Jedi are flawed but not "corrupt", they do what they can within certain legal parameters, Qui Gon pushes the boundaries of that but obviously does not wish the leave the Order, just as he does not wish to guide it from the Council. It's very clear. Stories exist to provide experiences we don't get to have in everyday life, seeing a hero get the best of a nasty character, or outsmart a foolish character, is enjoyable because it is wish fulfillment. In real life, the nasties and fools are too often the ones who reap all the reward. Maybe we need more Qui Gon Jinns in real life...
    Last edited by Eternal_Hero, Oct 5, 2012
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  6. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    Why are we using Qui Gon in this example? He's a Grey Jedi - so not acting as a Jedi ordinarily would, surely?
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  7. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Qui-Gon: "I'll wager my new racing pod against, say, the boy and his mother."

    Watto: "No pod is worth two slaves! Not by a long shot!"

    Qui-Gon: "The boy, then."

    Later...

    Qui-Gon: "I tried to free your mother, honest!"

    If it's the will of the Force to give up that easily, Qui-Gon should have just let the Trade Federation gas him to death at the beginning of the movie.

    I guess that's one explanation for why he abandoned her to rot in slavery for ten years.

    Aren't Jedi supposed to find a way, not take the path of least resistance? What if Watto hadn't wanted to bet Anakin? Would Qui-Gon have just left him there, or would he have come up with a different plan to free him?

    Those are all things he said after he tried to use his Jedi powers right off the bat and failed.

    I don't think that, but that's more or less how the Jedi are portrayed in TPM. They're like cops with lightsabers. Qui-Gon's character is, in theory, supposed to be a maverick because he'd rather follow his own instincts and the whims of the Force than strictly adhere to the letter of the law laid out by the Senate and the Jedi Council. So the fact that "we didn't come here to free slaves" shouldn't stop him from freeing slaves if he gets the chance. Which he did with Anakin but not Shmi because she wasn't strong enough in the Force to interest him.

    The intentions are clear but I don't think they are followed through on very well in the film. I like Qui-Gon in the EU and I like Liam Neeson playing Qui-Gon but I don't find Qui-Gon as he is portrayed in TPM very interesting or remarkably heroic. I don't dislike him, but he doesn't seem like the ideal Jedi to me.
    Last edited by _Catherine_, Oct 5, 2012
  8. instantdeath Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2010
    star 5
    I sincerely hope that no English Lit Class will touch TPM or anything written by Terry Brooks :p

    Then again, I've heard Brooks has gotten better, but TPM novelization and the few originals I've read by him were so bland...

    If it means anything, he tried a bit harder in the novel.

    Anyway, I'd argue that Qui-Gon is supposed to come off a bit more morally ambiguous than many other Jedi... there was a reason some thought that he was a "gray Jedi". Even so, he seems to lack that cold disconnection with everything that other Jedi impose upon themselves.

    Qui-Gon is an interesting case for me. I like Qui-Gon a lot, and actually find him one of my favorite characters in the entire saga... but I really don't care for the movie he stars in. Must be a combination of James Luceno writing him so well in COD and the Liam Neeson effect.

    Watto is a lazy, lazy man. If he wasn't so lazy, he'd punch you in the mouth.
    Last edited by instantdeath, Oct 5, 2012
  9. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Another, more practical reason to consider freeing Anakin rather than his mother -- who would look out for him if he's mother's no longer a slave? She'd still basically BE a slave, because how else would she be able to earn enough to keep them both clothed and fed?

    (And what mother wouldn't want a better opportunity for her child? Seriously)
    Last edited by Guinastasia, Oct 5, 2012
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  10. beccatoria Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2006
    star 4
    I imagine Shmi would far rather be working all the hours she can in order to raise her child in poverty but freedom than working all the hours she can in order to raise him in slavery where she has no control over what dangerous activities he's forced to participate in or in being separated from him.

    If Anakin is still bound for the Jedi Temple and if it's not willing to help set her up with a job or something, then she's still better off unenslaved, and probably that would have done a lot to ease Anakin's terrified subconscious, too.

    Obviously Shmi wants a better life for her child, that's why she sends him. I think people here are just talking over why Qui-Gon didn't try harder for a better result.

    For the record, I understand why Qui-Gon, unable to Jedi Mind Trick or buy his way out of the situation, took the best deal he could at short notice, figuring that having Shmi's head blow up if he took her by force would be worse than leaving her, and waiting around to enact a longer plan to save her might cost more lives on Naboo.

    What I don't understand is why for the next ten years, no one went back and got her.

    Apparently Qui-Gon did arrange for her to get something to help her buy her own freedom, but...according to AotC she was freed by the man who bought her - Cliegg Lars. So...I don't know what's going on there.

    I mean, there's lack of attachment and the fact that the Jedi can't be responsible for ensuring every candidate's family lives in the lap of luxury (see also the Malreauxs or Crys Taanzer), and there's the psychologically cruel decision to force Anakin to carry on living knowing that his mother is enslaved to a criminal. Being poor or mad isn't necessarily indicative of being the victim of a crime. But the Jedi are keepers of the peace and guardians of justice. Shmi is the victim of an ongoing crime. The Jedi know about this. They apparently do nothing.

    Anakin probably wouldn't be denied permission to go and save any other sentient in the galaxy, but can't go back and save his mother out of an arbitrary adherence to the notion of detachment. How are you supposed to attain a balanced acceptance of the transitory nature of relationships when the person you're trying to detach yourself is currently suffering in the name of that very epiphany? It's just...daft.

    It's weird. I'm inclined to put it down to poor writing.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    She got the engine part (a Tobal lens)- she, eventually, after deciding Cliegg was the right guy, gave him it- he bought her, then freed her.
  12. beccatoria Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2006
    star 4
    Fair enough, that makes sense, and then Qui-Gon dies before being able to tell anyone about what he did. That said, it still doesn't explain why the entire rest of the Order expected Anakin to be able to put aside the fact his mother was enslaved with the threat of death-by-explosion should she try to escape. :/
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  13. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    Obviously, we can't say for sure how long he would have tried to free Anakin or if he might have left him behind or come back later. I would imagine the reason he didn't continue trying plans to free Shmi is he still had to get to Coruscant and hopefully free Naboo from the TF's control. Plus, the longer they stayed on Tatooine, the longer the chance for something else going wrong happens such as the TF finding them or the Hutts discovering Amidala was there. It probably didn't feel good have to leave Anakin's mother in slavery, but the Jedi aren't all powerful. Plus,in this era they do have the prevailing attitude of doing what they can and accepting what they can't. You might argue that that's one of the attitudes that led to their downfall.
    Last edited by MistrX, Oct 7, 2012
  14. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    Yes, Qui-Gon sent her a Tobal lens with the intention (stated as I recall) that she would use it to buy her freedom.
  15. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    I have not read Traviss work, lack the time and my money goes to RPG:s and comics, but from what others have been saying I have got the impression that her clones don't like the Kaminoans. Is this true and if it is has there been any work done to explain why her clones don't like the Kaminoans while most of the cartoon clones seams to see Kamino as the home? Or is it that they see Kamino as home but dislike the Kaminoans?
  16. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9

    Believe it is a very, very small subset (as depicted in the works) who do not.
  17. Gorefiend Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2004
    star 5
    Really just seem to be the handful Special Clones trained by Mando Mercs, since their trainer pretty much told them to hate them.
  18. jedimaster203 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 1999
    star 4
    The commandos don't like the Kamino (mainly just SOME Kamino) because of the treatment they recieved during their short upbringing.
  19. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    The commandos hate the Kaminoans because the Kaminoans put them in live-fire exercises as very, very tiny children–sort of like Dr. Halsey did in the Halo series with the Spartan soldiers. Not only that, there were some other very grueling exercises, such as crawling through a pit full of nerf entrails, or a killing house (reportedly like that in the British Special Air Service) where every time you went in, you never knew what was going to happen because the building rearranged every time. So they have a perfectly logical reason to hate Kaminoans. As to Kamino itself, some hated it and some loved it.
  20. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    There's also the issue of sufficiently "defective" clones being "terminated" by the Kaminoans. That could make some clones quietly resentful.
  21. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Well, yeah. It would be like finding out your mother was supposed to have twins but she aborted the other one...if that's even possible. But anyways, yes, I think it would make them quite resentful.
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I was thinking more of- a bunch of clones performing an exercise, the one who performs worst turns out to have a defect, and the Kaminoans take them away and they Are Never Seen Again.

    We know that even in TCW, there are clones who desert, or think of their life as slavery.
  23. Revanfan1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    True, but they usually caught defects straight out of the birthing chambers. However yes, the clones would probably be extremely resentful if one of their buddies got hauled off to die because he shot one less droid than the rest of them. The clones don't exactly have fair lives, and I think that's why I like the Republic Commando series so much, and would even without the Mando stuff (which I love)–it shows the clones a normal life. And they like it.
  24. Robimus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 6, 2007
    star 5
    Those raised since toddlerhood by Kal Skirata adopted his veiwpoint. Not much more to it than that.
  25. Gamiel Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2012
    star 5
    In which stories is this describes, just curios.

    Dose that actually happen in any story? It don't sound economical
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