A question to Americans : How do you think Europeans should change ?

"Don't you dare blame the working-class for that"

Oh Please. Put your molatov down would ya? Thank you. Stop twisting my words around. God, you Marxists are good at deflection I give you that.

Of course the massacre was a travesty. Of course it was. Duh. I'm saying the way the commune was started was bound to lead to an excuse, any excuse no matter how ridiculous, for the establishment to go in and put a stop to it.

EDIT:

Gee GAP thanks for the thoughtful response.

GAP: "I doubt that Canada and the USA will become one anytime soon if that's what you're saying."

I'm not saying soon. But eventually it could, stress could happen. It's likely it will. I'm not talking the whole of Canada and the U.S. either, just the western Canadian Provinces.


GAP: "So? That's because they live near the borders and it makes it more convinient.. Not because the people in Canada decided that they'd also like to be Americans."

But many ARE Americans! Oh boy. It's not just convenience. It also has to do with family ties and people who grew up in particular areas and share a common bond.


GAP: "So? France and Belgium are not the same country with the same governement even though they are both members of the European Union with a same coin."

Umm...the EU IS a government. One like what I'm talking about.

As laws are more uniformly applied, natioanl institutions will raise cooperation and will develop stronger ties. That's all.


GAP: (In reference to my statement of increased US diversity) "Uhm, and you mean to say that this is soley so in the US?"

Not at all. Just that this diversity will make it possible eventually for citizens of No. America to cooperate and associate with one another more freely.


GAP: (Inreference to my statement about migrant and immigrants moving, working, living here.)"Not my point."

What was your point?


GAP: "I guess"

Just like most of your response. Thanks.

 

Don't you think we're getting a little off-topic here? This thread is for Americans to voice their opinions on how Europeans should change, not for a discussion of communism.

 

What Terr_Mys said. Good discussion on communism, guys, but please, start a new thread for it. I'd hate to see this one locked.

 

Well then AG and TM put it back on-topic then! Your comments are just furthering it being off-topic.

 

but it seems like European TV is not as good, so while you convert to NTSC do your power as well

I thought NTSC has to with picture quality and not broadcast quality

although I've to admit tv here suck, too international who cares about those German and French tv, I live in the Netherlands I don't need those channels

How do you think Europeans should change ?

European goverment should have more guts: more action then talking and they should spend more in the military.

I like the rest, but then again I'm not an American

 

"although I've to admit tv here suck, too international who cares about those German and French tv, I live in the Netherlands I don't need those channels."

LOL! Yeah, tv stinks mostly here in the US too. You are not alone Omega.

 

You are not alone Omega.

there is nothing we can do about that

 

That is not entirely true SB, c'mon.

I'm not disagreeing that French nationalism irritated Marx. Nationalism and what would later become known as fascism irritated him throughout his entire life. However, this irritation did not extend to him disliking the Paris Commune, as you suggested.

When Marx and Engels tried to get the revolution to start in Germany, the Soc-Dems of that nation blocked it.

Marx and Engel's attempted revolution in Germany was never given any real effort. Any subversiveness occured in Marx's editting of the Rheinische Geitung, which was, and several papers after it, closed down, before Marx was ejected entirely, to France.

When they tried the neighboring nations, the same. The Soc-Dems were not interested in jeopordizing thier own nations stability for the sake of the revolution. This was nationalism and made Marx furious.

Marx's biggest opposition came through what can only be described as a conspiracy between the French, Belgian and Prussian leaderships to eject him from their countries. Nationalism rankled on Marx, but he was guilty of nationalism to a degree himself: when hecame to England during his exile, where he wrote most of his works and lived most of his adult life until his death, he integrated straight into the German immigrant community with little heed paid to the English whole. He find their "vaguely conservative doltishness" (as he put it) irritating.

He only supported the Paris Commune because it was perhaps his only chance of realizing the revolution at the time.

Does this weaken the importance of the Paris Commune? No...

But again, he hated the French socialists because of thier veiled love of Napolean III. National Imperialist.

I think hate is a strong word, considering he was in league with many of them during the time of the International. However, I agree that he didn't get along. Remember that famous quote. When he heard that there was a French Marxist party, he said that, in that 'In that case at least, I am not a Marxist.'

Oh Please. Put your molatov down would ya? Thank you. Stop twisting my words around. God, you Marxists are good at deflection I give you that.

I wasn't twisting your words. You said the Paris Commune was doomed to failure. I said that it failed because of the middle-class massacre. You again accused it of being doomed to failure. I take this to mean that you see the working-class as at fault, despite the fact that THEY were massacred. And I possess no molatov; I am a peaceful Marxist!

Of course the massacre was a travesty. Of course it was. Duh.

Yay, agreement! *bounce*

I'm saying the way the commune was started was bound to lead to an excuse, any excuse no matter how ridiculous, for the establishment to go in and put a stop to it.

Of course. The ruling class, when it can't assert authority through fraud, does so through force. This isn't the fault of Communism, however. Nor the reason why Communism can't work. In the case of peaceful revolution, the Government can't feasibly come up with an excuse to massacre the many; unfortunately, the Parisian Communards were too proud to not fight back when the middle-classes started to try and take back Paris.

This is why I support lax gun controls. If every single Parisian Communard was properly armed, the Versailles traitor would never have reached Montmartre.

EDIT:

Ok, now, looking back on all the posts, and not just ShayneP's, I can see a mod asked for a change of subject. I apologise for continuing the debate. If it is desirable, I will remove (or ask you to) the above riposte.

However, to say something on topic:

It's great to see an American who is knowledgeable of European history. That dispels a few worries, even though I disagree with Shayne almost entirely.

I must also agree with the sentiments about European TV. Having stayed in America for a long time, I can firmly say that ours sucks by comparison!

- Scarlet.

 

"I think Europeans should mind more of their own bees-wax.

"My biggest problem is the fact that they don't take care of their own situations. They should have stepped in much sooner in Kosovo and Bosnia. That thing about the French is right on, I still don't get what they were objecting to when the US wanted a tough resolution on Iraq, other than they just don't want us to take him out because he is lining their own pockets.

"If they love Clinton so much why don't they marry him? We elect our own president, and the fact that Bush is fighting for American interests is a very good thing IMO. Bush is very popular here, and that is what is important. And BTW, Bush had done far more to invigorate the international process than what Clinton did."

heh heh. it looks like someone here caught the old foot in mouth disease.

europeans are taking care of their own situations. the french were so reluctant in supporting bush because their leader was taking into consideration the wishes and needs of his people. this is called taking care of one's own situation.

even after the UN-supported resolutions, 20-30% (that's a pretty large chunk, by the way) of the US population are still against a war with iraq. bush is undeniably not so popular in the global as well as in the domestic scene. clinton, in the eyes of the world and the US, is still the better man!

by the way, i don't like clinton very much, but i could at least say that much about him.

cheers!

 

ROTFLMBO!

Someone in an earlier post mentioned cutting taxes as a way for Europeans to change. Whatever your view of this check out this link to a article about a new song from Germany.

Read the lyrics featured in the piece.

ROTFL!

Tax Song Mocks PM Schroeder

 

I don't know how I stuck my foot in my mouth, and your post did nothing to prove otherwise, in fact I think you may have caught it yourself. While Europe can respond to economic and social matters inside it's own countries, it is unable to deal with much else. I mentioned Kosovo and Bosnia, and what I meant was the European neighbors should have gone in and taken care of the situation, but the US had to take the initative and do it itself.

even after the UN-supported resolutions, 20-30% (that's a pretty large chunk, by the way) of the US population are still against a war with iraq. bush is undeniably not so popular in the global as well as in the domestic scene. clinton, in the eyes of the world and the US, is still the better man!

I would say 60-70% job approval ratings and the historic election of the Republican Congress also demonstrate the opposite view. Bush is one of the most popular presidents here in America, so I really don't know what you are talking about there. I abhor Clinton and almost all he did. He degraded the presidency and I feel he will wind up in the dustbin of history. And you are wrong about another thing, Bush in the eyes of the US, is the better man. I think it says something when almost all the people he was campaigning for lost. Did I mention I live in the only state where Clinton came in THIRD?

 

Actually, most of the people I know who voted for Clinton don't like him anymore. (Although my husband still likes him--I haven't figured that one out yet. ) I don't know that Clinton was responsible for the huge economic boom in the 90s; therefore, in my view, he didn't really do anything as President. Bush, IMHO, is a much better man for the job.

As far as the whole Presidential scandal deal--I still stand by my belief that Paula Jones should have never been able to sue a standing President, especially when the event allegedly happened two years before he ever entered office--she should have had to wait until he got out of office to sue him. But anyway, I am also disappointed with the media, etc., for making such a big deal out of Clinton's lack of ability to keep his pants zipped. While I don't like the man, I will side with anyone who agrees that his sex life is his personal business.

 

Ok, now, looking back on all the posts, and not just ShayneP's, I can see a mod asked for a change of subject.

Wow, I'm so proud! You guys are already self-policing.

Yes, let's keep the Communism discussion to another thread. The 'North America politically/socially aligning vs. Europe politically and socially aligning' discussion is an interesting one...let's just drop the contentiousness a little.


As for non-foreign-policy subjects (I covered that in my first post in the thread), I think that there are definitely economic reforms that would improve things in Europe. Loosening the labour market, relaxing the EU stability pact, giving the central bank an inflation target instead of ceiling and come to grips with the social and economic upheaval of immigration tops my list.

 

Why, pray tell, should Europe their taxes?!? ?

E_S

 

Why, pray tell, should Europe their taxes?!? confused.gif

E_S

I am finding this post hard to follow.

 

Stupid uni computers!

Why should Europeans lower their taxes?

E_S

 

I think they are extending American rhetoric advocating lowered taxes to encourage increased economic activity and growth and competitiveness. While in many cases that is sound, the level of Europe social welfare system and their fiscal responsibilities makes a reduction in taxation unrealistic, in my opinion.

However, there is room to tinker in the Labour market, central bank planning, fiscal policy, etc to boost competitiveness and economic growth. But that's a bit overly specific and removed from the average European for this thread, I think...

 

Isn't one of the fundamental differences in the taxation mentalities between Europe and America that Europeans support a stronger welfare state and actually benefit from taxation when they're older, (like superannuation), whereas Americans aren't generally welfare-state-minded in the same way?

E_S

 

Hilarious. The people who regard big snails and pig-dug truffles as delicacies, the people who fine each other for using loan words from other languages, the people who still aren't convinced that soap and hot water are good ideas, are edgy over a little American unilateralism. Oh, well, at least they gave us Ann Le Guernec and Anne Parillaud, so we can let them slide a bit on the weirdness, right?

Personally, I think France's best bet for a strong political future would be to withdraw from any European unions, and perhaps form a political coalition with Quebec, preparatory to taking over Canada. I think the Canadian flag would look a *lot* better with a nice silver fleur-de-lis motif, and it would be a hoot to see the Quebecois running the place; they could hardly do any worse than the mental basket cases currently in charge.

Perhaps we could get them to march south and burn the U.S. "White House" again, which would be a wonderful way to start out the new century.

(BTW...Don't *EVER* visit France; the Academie Francaise will petits-four you to death, or something....I was thrown out of France for refusing to drink wine, and tossed out of Hyde Park Speakers' Corner for having had a bath within the previous week. Aside from a few pieces in the Tate Gallery, and possibly Julie Cox and Chloe Annett, I can't think of anything worthy of another trip. Jollie Olde Eirelande, of course, is location-attractive due to their civil Income Tax laws...)

 

Hmm. Chill with the France-baiting, or else.

We have french posters here, and I wouldn't be amused by such a needlessly inflammatory screed if I were them.

 

There was a little more than France-baiting on that post.

What with references to baths, Hyde Park and the Tate Modern.

Ahem.

- Scarlet.

 

That post really made no sense. What was the point? If your going to fuss at the Europeans or French at least have a sound argument, or something that makes sense..........

 

I've been to Europe 4 times, and everyone there was extremely nice.

Even in France.

 

That post really made no sense. What was the point? If your going to fuss at the Europeans or French at least have a sound argument, or something that makes sense..........

Ahhhh, but it did.

The title of the thread is, "A question to Americans: How do you think Europeans should change?" And I told the French how to.

Easy-peasy, Japanesey.

Buuuuut, seriously, though, as Krusty the Klown once said, "Hey...I kid, because I LOVE!!!"

[image=http://www.dohh.com/otherimages/smkrusty2.gif]