A question to Christians

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jabba_on_a_unicycle, Jan 7, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I always liked this one:


    Always want to post that outside the restraunt I work at, so all those people who swarm us after church will just go home already and rest like their god commanded them to.

    Never had to prep any kosher meals on Friday nights and Saturdays, as the Jews will actually do what God's Law says.




    Squ33k!
  2. DarthDogbert Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2004
    star 2
    If I were driving 70 in a 70mph limit area, would an officer have the right to give me a ticket because the limit used to be 55mph? Likewise, the law has changed. We are no longer under the Law of Moses, we are under the Law of Christ. (Rom. 7:1-6)
  3. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    Well the law was changed to have Sunday be the Sabbath, and I don't go to stores or work on Sunday because it is breaking a commandment.
  4. DarthDogbert Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2004
    star 2
    Common misperception. Sunday (the first day of the week) is the Lord's Day and is the day we are commanded to take the Lord's Supper (Acts 20:7) and give (1 Cor. 16:2), but nowhere does it say that it is our Sabbath or that we must refrain from working.

    A lesson in making sure we speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where it is silent (1 Pet. 4:11).
  5. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    I don't confine God's word to the Bible. We need revelation every bit as much as did the ancient Jews.
  6. EnforcerSG Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2001
    star 4
    DarthDogbert

    I shouldn't have come onto the site, I should sleep. But...

    Well, your example with your friend applies for me to God, except that in God's case, He created me and knows me a whole lot better than I know myself. If you're asking what gives me this trust, then I would say it is a combination of study and experiences. [Events in our lives, especially when we put our trust in God, offer evidence as to the goodness of God and His will (Rom. 12:1-2)]

    But do you know any of that absolutely? Do you believe it absolutely?

    Question: Would you consider absolute faith the same as close-mindedness?

    No, but I had to think about it. There are several reasons. First is that some things have so much evidence for it (and so little against it) that practically we trust them 100% of the time, but still acknowledge that it is possible that it could be wrong on an academic level. For example, I eat. I acknowledge that it is possible that I could not eat and live, but every bit of evidence I have points to me needing to eat to live, so I do eat. From the practical point of view, there are things that can appear to be taken absolutely.

    But even more so, we are all human no matter how hard we try not to me. We may be pretty sure of something, but we can not just turn on or off what we believe, trust or have faith in. It takes time, effort and practices.

    But if those two things don't apply, then it may very well be closed mindedness.

    I understand limitations to my own knowledge and that I can't absolutely prove some things, and so I am always willing to examine my faith and change it when necessary. In fact, God encourages us to examine our faith in Him so that we can grow and correct problems (2 Cor. 13:5). We're never to think that we're so perfect that we can't be mistaken. That does not make God and His promises any less real to me, though.

    I am not saying that there is one, but theoretically if a major unresolvable contradiction was found with the Bible, what would you do?

    There's nothing wrong with questioning God as long as we don't do it rebelliously.

    If you believe in and trust God absolutely, then what's the point? You know that He won't lead you into a chair and that He is sure, so why would you even ask?

    I don't think it takes anything away from our faith to ask questions. David was a man of great faith, yet throughout the book of Psalms he questions within himself why God handles things certain ways, and God has answered many of these questions. Sometimes God answers simply with "I am God, trust Me" as He did with Job.

    I am sorry, but it troubles me when you say something like that, yet a few sentences before you said:
    In fact, God encourages us to examine our faith in Him so that we can grow and correct problems (2 Cor. 13:5).

    It is not a contradiction, but it just does not sit well with me that we are suppose to think about God, but at times never get anywhere and accept it without question.
  7. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    If I were driving 70 in a 70mph limit area, would an officer have the right to give me a ticket because the limit used to be 55mph? Likewise, the law has changed. We are no longer under the Law of Moses, we are under the Law of Christ.

    Moses didn't have the power to make Divine Law, only present it.

    The "Jewish" Torah is God's Law, the "Law of Christ".

    As Numbers 15 tells us, there is one Law for Jew and Gentile, as the native-born Hebrew is before God, so is the foreigner who joins themselves to the true God.

    Paul tells us that in Christ there is neither Jew nore Gentile.

    Yeshua the Messiah tells us in Matthew 5 that it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one marking in the Law to pass, and, along those same lines, whoever breaks even the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least by those in the Kingdom of Heaven, and whoever keeps and teaches them will be called great. He tells us again in 23 that we are to listen to and do whatever the Pharisees teach. He told the rich young ruler to keep the commandments if he wishes to enter into the Kingdom. He told the Pharisees that if one wishes to have eternal life He must keep the two greatest commandments, on which all the others depend.

    As for this business regarding the Sabbath and Sunday, it's all wrong.

    The word commonly translated as "first day of the week", speaking about the apostles meeting together, "the Lord's day", or the day Christ arose, is called in Greek "Sabbaton", and, in fact, means the seventh day of the week on the Hebrew calendar, which, on ours, is Saturday. It is in reference to the Holy Day in the "Mosaic Law", in fact.

    A blatant mistranslation.
  8. DarthDogbert Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2004
    star 2
    "First day of the week" = mia sabbaton, not just sabbaton.

    As used in Mt. 28:1.
    In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    Here's a useful site for doing quick and easy word searches. You can see the greek/hebrew in the passage and search for any other passage using the same greek/hebrew word.
  9. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    1) I never got why people took Paul's word to be Law. I'd give that more weight if Jesus had said it. As it is, it sounds more like someone who said "You know what, it's a pain to stay kosher all the time, or not work on the sabbath, so let's not worry about that any more. We'll just say that there's a new law."

    2) Let me, for a second, assume that Paul is in a position to declare such a thing. If that is the case, then please tell me why homosexuality is still (wrongly) considered a sin by Christians. Christians claim that the old law condemns it, yet ignore everything else the old law says. Why the picking and choosing? Why is that one law (poorly translated I'd say) still around, while all the others were thrown out?

    3) Why not just call it the Nine Commandments? You still seem to have absolutely no problem with the rest of them, just the one. This isn't like dismissing vast parts of Leviticus here, you're trying to dismiss a part of the Ten Commandments. Obviously it's important if God put it with the Big Ten laws, yet Christians callously dismiss it.

    Methinks Christians are only interested in what is convenient for themselves.




    Squ33k!
  10. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    God chose Moses to give the people the law.
    God chose his prophets to give people the law.
    God chose Jesus to give people the law.
    God chose Jesus' apostles to give peoploe the law.

    God always uses his chosen people to express is will and his laws to the people.
    Nobody is chosing Pauls teachings over Christs because they are one in the same. :rolleyes:

    To say they are not is saying out of ignorance.
  11. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Here's a question to Christians and I'm really serious, but can any Christian show me proof that moses existed other than with the bible?
  12. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    God chose Mohammed to give people the law?
    God chose David Koresh to give people the law?

    Anyway...

    Why do the laws keep changing? Why couldn't God have given us His perfect law through Moses? Why the delays? Why make one set of laws, only to replace them later on?

    Seems as if the Christian God is just screwing with us. Either that, or Christians are just wrong.




    Squ33k!
  13. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    When you can show me proof that I came from a single celled organism, I will show you proof outside the bible that Moses existed.
  14. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    So you're saying that you can't? That your view of the bible is the same as your view of science? Please clarify, or I shall have to call bull****.



    Squ33k!
  15. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Certainly. Just look at a fetus. :D Now, show me proof.
  16. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Nope not saying that at all.

    I'm saying that the bible should be basis enough to believe he existed.

    Ever notice that quite a significant number of scientific archeological digs use the bible as a reference to a stating point?
  17. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Hmmm thats odd because a fetus is not a single celled organism now is it? [face_mischief]

    I pretty sure you know what I mean!
  18. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Nope. Not really. And I don't believe books. See, Christians are right not to believe everything you read. Like say...if I said open a science book that explained evolution you probably still wouldn't believe in it. And if the bible is your only proof then may I conclude that he never existed at all? If you can't accept one text as fact (evolution) then how am I to accept that the bible's texts are true?


    Hmmm thats odd because a fetus is not a single celled organism now is it?
    I pretty sure you know what I mean!


    When the zygote starts out it is a single-celled organism. You asked for proof that you came from one. You never asked which.
  19. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    "First day of the week" = mia sabbaton, not just sabbaton.

    As used in Mt. 28:1.
    In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first [day] of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

    Here's a useful site for doing quick and easy word searches. You can see the greek/hebrew in the passage and search for any other passage using the same greek/hebrew word.


    Hmm.

    My source is studylight.org, and according to it, "first" is heis; day, as your text points out, was simply added by the translators (denoted by the brackets), and "week" is sabbaton.

    So a correct translation would be first of the Sabbaths, or first of the full weeks.

    One might wonder at first what is meant by this. Well, Christ died on Passover. The next feast after this is the Feast of Weeks, or the Omer count. In it, 7 full weeks are counted, after which the next feast is observed, which is Pentecost.

    In other words, He arose on the first Sabbath in the count between Passover and Pentecost. He did not rise on Sunday.
  20. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    You see you're using an invalid assumption in your argument because I do believe in quite a few scientific books therefore your analogy is incorrect.

  21. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Fair enough, but the question was aimed at evolution. ;) I believe in some scientific theories as well: Gravity, Trichromatic theory, etc etc.

    EDIT: If I could show a book on evolution presenting all of the facts anyone could want and they still wouldn't believe it; then why should I believe in the validity of text in the bible when there's more proof for evolution than there is for the bible?
  22. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    By george I think you did get it [face_laugh] [face_hypnotized]

    edit:More evidence? In your opinion?
  23. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I'm not being biased here at all. I'm just looking for answers to these basic problems.


    Here, let's approach this from another angle. The whole problem I believe Christians are having is that they're not selling their religion. Before it was forced and if you didn't follow it you could likely die. That's a big motivator to believe. Then things changed and now Christianity is in decline. Why? Because they're not selling their faith to the masses. Now I'm a prospective customer and your job is to give me a reason why your product (faith) is better than the rest. What's in it for me that I could benefit from? Sell me your faith. Or try to. And I promise I'll keep an open-mind about all of this.
  24. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    The mosaic law was to protect and point his people towards the direction of the Messiah. They were reminders of the need for mans redemption by sacrifice.

    After the Messiah came,the redemption and sacrific was given so those laws regarding that were no longer needed. The laws now point his people towards his kingdom as the only hope to solve mankinds problems, and what it takes to make it there.

    Circumstanses have changed.
  25. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Not sure of your level of senserity here........ and I can only give you the answers I have, and not every "Christian" agrees with or even openly accepts.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.