A question to Christians

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jabba_on_a_unicycle, Jan 7, 2005.

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  1. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Fair enough. Then it's a deal. You offer your proof. I ask questions if I have any and we see what goes from there. The worst that can happen is that we both challenge each other's views on matters and that's not really a bad outcome in and of itself.
  2. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Circumstances may have changed, but God's entire Law remains to be obeyed by all those who call themselves His followers. If some kind of meat was abominable to God before Christ came, it's abominable to Him now. If a specific day was meant to be set apart specifically for God's service, rather than our own (the sabbaths) before Christ came, then He desires the same thing now. All of Scripture is doctrine and teaching and instruction on how to live. ALL of it, including all of the Law. Nothing has passed.

    Christ said heaven and earth would pass away, but His Words will remain. He is the mediator between God and man, therefore, all of God's Words in the Old Testament, including the Law, were Christ's. If His Words remain, then that includes the Law.
  3. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Except in your case when Paul(scripture) says were are no longer bound by the mosaic law, right? :rolleyes:
  4. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    However Paul clearly taught differently.

    The law given to the ancient Jews was a prepatory law, to prepare them for the Christ's comming. However when Christ made the ultimate sacrifice there was no more need for God's children to sacrifice lambs to look forward to Christ, and instead were to remember Christ through the administration of the Sacrament, which symbolized Christ's sacrifice.

    God does not change, but man does, and God only gives man commandments that he is able to follow. God continually reveals His will to his children.
  5. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Paul never taught that. He only taught that, once saved, we are free from the law of sin and death (not the Mosaic Law, which he later calls good and righteous and just), and that works of the Law, no matter which commandments they are, cannot justify you before God, only God's grace through your faith.

    Apart from this, he said we are to obey God through the Spirit, not living simply by the letter, but walking in the Spirit (which includes living according to the Law). He said not to give heed to man's doctrines and traditions over the Word of God. He taught that although he is as someone without the Law to those without Law, he is not without the Law of God (the Mosaic Law), and under the Law of Christ.

  6. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    So why don't you sacrifice animals anymore? Surely that part of the mosaic law would still exist?

    Or do you?

  7. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    Romans chapter 3 clearly talks of this, in this case Paul talked of circumcision, part of the Mosaic law, was not necessary for the Gentiles.

    I can understand the Jewish thinking that Christ was not the Messiah and hence the law still is applicable, however there is a reason why in all the diversities of Christiandom that the grand majority have understood that the physical commandments such as not eating pork, circumcision, and animal sacrifice were things that were not commandments for the Church after Christ.

    Baptism was not an ordinace in the Mosiac law, yet clearly it is needed for salvation.
  8. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Yeah, because they didn't want to. Notice, of all those laws in Leviticus, only homosexuality is still frowned upon. Why? Because that's smething that didn't affect them. Staying kosher affected them. Not toiling on the Sabbath affected them. Etc.

    It's picking and choosing based on laziness.

    Despite thinking that he's wrong most of the time, I have respect forFireman's convictions, because he stands by them. He's neither cold nor lukewarm in his adherence to his faith, which is something I cannot say for most of Christendom.



    Squ33k!
  9. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    I would agree to that last statement. I think the physical laws of the old testament were done away with, but I still abide by all the spiritual ones.

    I don't even drink tea and coffee, so it's not that I don't follow strict dietary laws, I just believe that God gives commandments based on the willingness of men to follow them, and the law Jesus gave, while not as detailed as the Mosaic law, is far harder to follow.
  10. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Thank you for the kind words, JFT. I respect you as well.

    OB1, it is against Torah to sacrifice animals anywhere other than where the Father has placed His Name, that place being the Temple, on the Temple Mount. Furthermore, it must be done by the Livitical priesthood. Not just any Joe Bloe can do it. Prophecy, however, is clear that it will be done during the millennial reign of Christ.

    "E", I find your statement somewhat illogical. I don't mean that in an insulting way, but think about it: is adultery a physical thing? Is murder? Is stealing? My point is you cannot have the spiritual WITHOUT the physical. Every commandment is an outward sign of our inward love for God and for mankind. Every commandment. Even when it comes to eating and worshipping and working. This is why Christ said every commandment depends on the love of God and the love of man.
  11. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    How do they know they are from the tribe of Levi?
  12. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    It isn't a matter of "them"; Christ Himself, when He restores the Northern Kingdom and unites Judah and Ephraim, will raise up Levites from the peoples, because He knows who went where.
  13. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Part of the mosaic law required Israelist priests to regularly offer sacrifices.
    Regular times offered: Every morning and evening (Ex 29:38-42; Le 6:8-13; Nu 28:3-8); every Sabbath day (Nu 28:9, 10); first day of month (Nu 10:10); Passover and seven days of Festival of Unfermented Cakes (Le 23:6-8; Nu 28:16-19, 24); Day of Atonement (Le 16:3, 5, 29, 30; Nu 29:7-11); Pentecost (Le 23:16-18; Nu 28:26-31); each day of Festival of Booths.?Nu 29:12-39.
    Other occasions: At consecration of priesthood (Le 8:18-21); at installation of Levites (Nu 8:6, 11, 12); in connection with making covenants (Ex 24:5;); with communion offerings as well as certain guilt and sin offerings (Le 5:6, 7, 10; 16:3, 5); in performing vows (Nu 15:3, 8); in connection with purifications (Le 12:6-8; 14:2, 30, 31; 15:13-15, 30).

    What does this have to do with the coming of Jesus, Oh yeah nothing, these are Mosaic Law requirments that you say we are still under therefore must follow! :rolleyes:
  14. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    You're right, and we'd do them if we could. And, once again, prophecy says we will do them again when the Temple is reconstructed and the Levitical priesthood reinstated. That is a fact. If you want the Scripture references, I'll post them.
  15. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    Even as I was writing about the physical laws and spiritual I knew I wasn't putting it the right way because God never gave a physical commandment.

    I'd have to do some actual research to further explore this, and at the moment I don't have time, but I find it very interesting that others think that the temple must be rebuilt, and although I believe the priesthood has been restored, it must be the sons of Levi that must offer sacrifices.
  16. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Whats stopping you from obey Gods commandments now?

    Doesn't acts 5:29 say we should obey Gods commandments rather than mans?
    Matt 10:28 says not to fear those that can kill the body but fear him that can kill the soul and body.

    Aren't we supposed to suffer persecution for Christs sake?
    Isn't that the true meaning of picking up your crux a following Jesus?

    So it appears you have a serious conflict of interest.

    Of course, if we are not bond by the mosaic law, there is no conflict. [face_mischief]

    Mat 13:21 and 4:17 comes to my mind.

    When the heat is too much get out of the kitchen.
  17. DarthDogbert Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2004
    star 2
    Fireman, I find it interesting that you talk about the Levitical priesthood being reinstated, because God actually uses the Levitical priesthood as an example to show Jewish Christians that the Law of Moses had passed away (being fulfilled).

    Read Hebrews 7:11-19.

    This passage makes a logical argument for a change in the law.
    1) Christ is our High Priest.
    2) Christ is from the tribe of Judah.
    3) Under the Law of Moses, only Levites could serve as high priest.
    Therefore, there must be a change in the law.

    Verse 12: For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

    As for the prophecy, I don't know which you have reference to, but I remember having a discussion last year about what you considered end-time prophecies in Daniel. I did a hard week's worth of study and (to my knowledge) never got a response when I posted my results. (Look for my long post here). Those prophecies were not end time prophecies, but were in fact events in the 1st and 2nd century BC as well as the 1st century AD.

    My point is, could these prophecies of the reinstatement of the Levitical sacrifices be pointing to the remnant that would return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city and temple under Ezra/Nehemiah/Zerubbabel?
  18. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    Ob1, I don't see your point. I do my best to obey all of God's commandments, all of His Torah. Somethings don't apply to me by the Mosaic Law's own specifications. Those things I don't do, because if I did them, I would actually be disobedient rather than obedient.

    Dogbert, regarding our old discussion, I am extremely sorry about the lack of participation on my part. I'll get a period of a few weeks where I'm able to post on here like crazy, and then all of a sudden my schedule bogs me down to the point where I'm not even able to find time to get on here and announce my forth-coming absences. My apologies.

    To answer the question, Prophecy is an odd thing; it describes things that are to happen soon after their writing, as well as things that are to come in the end ages. Weird thing is, when you look back to before, you'll find similar events and occurances regarding God and His people. The point is that God is in complete and ultimate control of things, and that He does things in patterns. He is an orderly God, and very systematic. Just look at the patterns in nature: the solar systems and the atom, for instance. He is specific down to the last detail, so if someone comes along trying to say God is changing, or changing His ways, or what have you, a quick look through Scripture ought to send up some red flags over such a claim. God doesn't change.

    One passage I was thinking of was Jeremiah 33; in it, the Word of YHVH states that during the last days, when Jerusalem dwells in safety and the Messiah reigns on earth, physically, over the nations, the Levites will be restored, and God will not break His covenant with them.

    As for Hebrews, the arguement, in reality, is not that there was a change to something totally new; it's that, rather, there have always been two things, one being inferior, or common, the other being better, superior, or holy. There are two Temples (or were, and will be): the earthly, physical Temple, in which the Levites serve, and the heavenly Temple, not made by human hands, in which Yeshua serves as High Priest. Is this a totally new thing? Not at all. Instead, the latter always existed, and the former, which is a copy, was added because of man's transgressions on the earth. It still serves a purpose, and will always serve one until there is no more sin being committed. But the idea is that there is something far better, something we cannot know, much less know without praciticing the "shadows".
  19. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Fireman, lets look back and review the converstaion again, shall we.

    As a reply to your comment obviously the conversation has shifted to the levitical priests within "Gods organization and laws."

    you clearly understood the shift of the topic was concerning the levivtcal priests by your reply (see bolded text above)

    Clearly you understood that obviously I knew you weren't a Levitical priest but that your use of we and we'd were infering to your levitical priest within your organization, right?

    Sorry, pehaps I should have put it this way, Whats stopping your priests from obeying Gods commandments now?

    Doesn't acts 5:29 say we (as a whole group, priests and followers) should obey Gods commandments rather than mans?
    Matt 10:28 says not to fear those that can kill the body but fear him that can kill the soul and body.

    Aren't we (as a whole group, priests and followers)supposed to suffer persecution for Christs sake?
    Isn't that the true meaning of picking up your crux a following Jesus?

    So it appears you have a serious conflict of interest.

    Of course, if we are not bond by the mosaic law, there is no conflict. [face_mischief]


    That's not the issue at hand. If you are a practicer of Gods commandments and insistant on strictly adhereing to the Mosaic laws, then surely you participate in an organization, just as the Israelites did, were scarifice of animals based on the
  20. The_Fireman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    But here is the thing you have to understand about God and His ways: He expects everyone to obey for their own part. Everyone has a role, and it is not my fault that the Levites have lost their identity within the nations and no longer know who they are or what they are supposed to do. Furthermore, it is not my responsibility to find them and restore them (that is the angels' responsibility, under the guidance of the Messiah King, Yeshua). All I am called to do is obey for my part; to love my neighbor as myself, to love my enemies and pray for my persecutors, and to love God with all my heart, soul, and resources. The way for me to do this is found within the Law. But for the things I cannot help, the things I have no control over (such as what everyone else does regarding God's commandments), it isn't my duty to 'find a way', so to speak. When God makes it possible, it will be the right time, and at that point, it will be my responsiblity to bring my sacrifices and offerings before God, so that the Levites can do their job. Until then, until the Temple is here again, my body serves as a temple for the Spirit of God, and my prayers are substitutes for the sacrifices and offerings.
  21. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
    star 5
    it is not my responsibility to find them and restore them

    It is my understanding that the tribe of Ephriam is to participate in this, but to be honest I don't know if that is Biblical.

    I see the Mosaic law as the lesser law, one that was given because the Israelites were not living worthy of keeping the higher law. The levitical priesthood was not the same priesthood that prophets such as Moses and Abraham had, it was a prepatory priesthood.

    The question is, what is stopping the Jews from building a temple now? It seems like worthy sons of Levi could perhaps be found, but that what is really lacking, at least from my point of view, is a prophet led by God to lead the people to raise up a temple, and the obvious problem of there being a giant dome held sacred by all the neighbors in the way.
  22. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    Because the Temple Mount, the historical location of the Jewish Temple, is currently being occupied by the Dome of the Rock, an Islamic shrine. In order for the Temple to be rebuilt, the Dome of the Rock must first be destroyed.

    You can imagine that that wouldn't really fly with the Palestinians and the rest of the Arab world.



    ph33r t3h ch33r
  23. RogueSquadronWingnut CR, The Rebellion, Rochester, NY

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2002
    star 4
    You mean destroy an object/shrine/tradition important to others for their own benefits and religious advancement?

    Nah...thats not going around or anything lately...
  24. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    This leads to an interesting question:
    If the Jews or "Christians", who say they are under the Mosaic Law, are today in Jerusalem as God?s chosen people, would not the temple devoted to his worship have been rebuilt there?

    Since the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 C.E., the temple has never been rebuilt and it most likely never will.

    There are reasons for this you know.
  25. -Commander_Thigh- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2004
    star 4
    What a wonderful username for a pastor-to-be.:oops:

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