Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

I always thought that Varys and Littlefinger play the game very well but as far as understanding exactly what the game is, as well as understanding many other things to a larger extent then anyone else around him its Tyrion. Tyrion is a vehicle that Martin uses to express the wonders of reading and learning, as well as a warning about whoring and drinking. I think Tyrion is Martin in the story. A lot of people think Varys is. I think its Tyrion.

 

Arthur Dayne was never at the Trident. Howland Reed/Ned didn't separate them, they ran into the 3 remaining Kingsguard when they went looking for Lyanna.

 

Eh, I guess.

Though frankly, I was really quite dissatisfied with the way they ended her story in this book. In particular, the whole "I tried to rule Mereen because I was a scared tired little girl" angle was non-sensical. She admittedly made several mistakes, but I don't think attempting to rule was one of them. Accepting the reality of harsh decision-making, as when she locked Astapori refugees out of the city, was an important moment. Figuring out whether she can trust the Shavepates, and second-guessing her decision not aid Cleon the Butcher are examples of real challenges of leadership. She will have to deal with those kinds of things anywhere, and going to Westeros wouldn't have helped. Because, really, are you telling me that Little Fingers motives are any more transparent? Practice holding court, and forging compromises that upheld the law of the land while not leaving peasants disenfranchised was a delicate, difficult balance, and one that it helps to practice at. I fail to see where it was a substantively bad decision to try.

More than that, though, I don't see why there is some special calling to Westeros. Yes, a lot of people want her to go there, but why should she in particular feel that way? She's never even set foot on the continent. She spent most of her life in one of the Free Cities, and her slim adulthood as either a Dothraki or a wandering warlord. Why shouldn't she find the Seven Kingdoms as foreign in many ways as she found Mereen?

 

Because....
it. is. her. destiny!

/Palpatine

Yes I don't think ruling Mereen was the act of a 'scared girl'. I think what can be ascribed to that though is locking up the dragons. Instead of trying to learn to control them, she locked them away. That was the act of someone scared of what they can do, and she's going to have to come to terms with that if she's going to use them in warfare.

 

She wants to get to westeros because she actually has a claim there.

To rule or lead a people you have to get them to accept you.

The Ghis as incompetant and overly focused on slavery as they are won't do that. And she dose not have the forces/resources to force compliance

Especially after that buisness with the Dragons. Brown pretty much told her that was why the second sons abandoned her, she lacked the resolve to win. Not win a battle win a war.

 

But every fact you mentioned there is changeable.

I'm pretty sure the noble houses of Westeros would abandon her if they didn't think she had the resolve to win, too. Isn't that a pretty basic principle? Once again, leaving does nothing to change the underlying dynamics. My point is not necessarily that she should stay in Mereen. It's that the rationale for her having done so in the first place was good, whereas the reasons given for her (presumably imminent) departure don't make sense.

I will agree with Marcus about the dragons, though. That was one of the strongest parts of both her personal character arc, and Dance of Dragons as a whole.

 

More like use her, in westeros you are a player or a peice. She would likely end up like poor Sansa if she is not careful.


Poor Sansa, she has learned the hardest lesson of all.

 

Well then that's the reason why Dayne and Taragaryen werent together at the Trident then . He must have really loved Lyanna. I wonder if Ned used his sister as bait thinking they might get the prince? If that is the case they probably crapped when the saw Dayne lol....

 

I disagree. Sansa knows now how the game works from the perspective of a member of the nobility being caught in the gears. It's been bad, sure. She's seen her father dead, she knows what its like to be a hostage. But Arya? Arya has been wandering about Westeros, seeing the ultimate consequences of the game. The burned fields and homes, the people slaughtered for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, what happens to people that don't have a title to protect them. Sansa has learned that it's better to play the game from a position of power, and how its important to learn to play the game well.

Arya has learned that all men must die. As grim and hard as Sansa's lesson has been, Arya's journey in the series is pretty much the absolute worst of anyone in the series who isn't dead, and somewhat worse than some of the dead people.

 

Arya killed a lot of people and is learning to be an assassin. Theon found out he belongs nowhere, is hated by both homes he's ever known and had his fingers and possibly his junk cut off. Reek, Reek, it rhymes with freak.

 

theon's fate was horriffic, but he brought it upon himself.

no one deserves to have happen to them, which happend to theon, he drove that train to its destination.


Sansa, self delusion of the world she lived in was the source of her pain. But she was 13 years old from a very shelterd life.

Arya, while sad, is more disurbing than sad, she has seen alot of tragity no doubt. But the way it effected her is more creepy than sad. I mean she is one of my Fav characters, but the way she can kill so easily...its creepy.

 

If the argument is who learned the hardest lesson, I'm gonna have to go with Tyrion. It takes his whole life and a crap load of emotional abuse and betrayal for him to finally realize your not obligated to love your family. If we're debating who has been through the most Im gonna have to go with Marcus and say Theon.

 

Arya is the clear winner for worst lot in life. The only person who has suffered more is Theon. However, as has been pointed out, that was largely the result of his own machinations. Arya, on the other hand, is a largely apolitical eight year old girl. She has suffered immensely, through no real fault of her own, and without even having an opinion on events. The scale of trauma is evident in how subtly twisted she is becoming psychologically.

 

Where do whores go?

 

the answer neo....There are no whores


Anywho from the Comic con interview Part 1 for game of thrones ypu can see the rest at You tube links

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpL6F2hKgV8&feature=related

 

Finished Dance last night and I thought it was good. Long but good.

So, Barristan confirms that Rhaegar did not love Elia but that he loved Lyanna Stark. I assume this confirms that Rhaegar's dying words at the Trident, the name of the woman he loved, was Lyanna.

So Barristan loved Ashara Dayne, whose "daughter" died at birth right? And then Ashara threw herself from the tower of joy, right? Or was it another tower? Ashara was rumored to be Jon's mother but Barristan's recollection removes this possibility, if I read it correctly. Maybe I didn't read it right. I don't know.

Also, I agree with Raven, Jon's watch is over and he will be free to marry his aunt and skin change into Drogon or Rhaegal to lay waste to the white walkers.

Also, Robert Strong is the Mountain, right, or did I misread that?

 

That's my understanding as well.

Does anyone think that Varys's motivations are something of a retcon? He's going to pretty extreme lengths in this novel to create chaos, whereas before he was actively working to prevent it.

 

Does anyone think that Varys's motivations are something of a retcon? He's going to pretty extreme lengths in this novel to create chaos, whereas before he was actively working to prevent it.



I do. With Barristans p.o.v. we learn that at least part of Aerys madness was Varys' whisper's. For me that left the door wide open for him being responsible for the Summerhall fire, the death of Egg and Dunk, ane control of that family. I dont think he's a eunuch either.

 

Barristan thinks that because, like everyone else, he doesn't trust Varys. I wouldn't count on that being the truth. And I don't see Varys starting any more chaos here than before. From the beginning, he's seemed to be playing to keep Westeros relatively stable without being strong, since it needs to be ripe for Targaryen takeover, which he purportedly thinks will allow the greatest stability. He needs some measure of chaos to keep a united Lannister or Baratheon or whoever front from just driving off Aegon and Daenerys, all in the name of stability for the future, without plunging the nation too far into anarchy to come out of it easily.

 

I think so too. I think Varys does serve the 'realm', it's just that to him, that means Targaryens.

 

But Barristan is not like " everyone else ". The author goes above and beyond in DoD to point that out. Barristan, as he himself explains, has stood within ten feet of the ruler of Westeros for 40 plus years - so when he thinks out loud in his p.o.v. about Aerys approaching the tourney field with Varys whispeing the (false) discontents and treasons of the different families that are present, Martin is giving the reader a clear indication that Varys - like Littlefinger - gets off on the Game, craves power and control over the lineaged privileged ones, and cares not for stability. This is my speculation but I dont think hes a eunuch, i think hes a guy who most likely lost his children and blames the nobility of Westeros.

 

I'm about to start reading the books for the first time and I can get all the way through the fourth book. What the books like? What's the best one of the first four? What's the worst? Please don't get too specific, I just want opinions. I've heard that they are like the Lord of the Rings. Is that true? I liked the Lord of the Rings and I hope that I will not be disappointed with this series

 

Barristan, like every other character, is not immune from prejudices that tilt the way he sees things. He's a straightforward, honorable type who despises weasels like Varys. Standing next to the king isn't going to change that. Varys is a convenient person to blame for things going wrong; if only the king had listened to me, and not slimeballs like that! The fact that Barristan dislikes him, and thinks he was a liar, is no more necessarily indicative of the truth than Robert's belief that Lyanna was raped, or Cersei's conviction that Tyrion killed Joffrey, or Maester Aemon's opinion that Daenerys is the prince(ss) that was promised, or Loras's certainty that Brienne killed Renly, or Melisandre's assurance that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn. They're just beliefs that (universally fallible) characters have.

 

the author makes it very clear that Barristan is much more then just a straight forward type when he introduces him as pov character. He's a very, very intelligent man that plays the Game in his mind as he's been standing there for every waking moment for 40+ years, and even with that said Im not disagreeing with you about characters having (purposely) misleading prejudices and beliefs. What I do believe is that Martin clearly signals when the truth is being relayed to the reader, always through subtle textual details sometimes with an eye witness testimony and then as the most damning evidence a p.o.v. witness testimony. All eight or nine or whatever it is of the major subplots are shrouded with misdirection by universally fallible perspectives but there is a plain truth too in each of them. The author doesnt make it easy either. Your a 100% correct , no character is immune from prejudices but lets not forget that there are degrees of this in all of us and to the extent that we can discern those degrees within ourselves and those around us is the extent of our wisdom. I guess what it all boils down to as a reader in this particular debate is how much weight do we place in Barristan and his beliefs. Martin doesnt write him as blood hungry/jealous(Robert), power hungry(Cersei), young and brash(Loras), or a fanatic(Melisandre). He writes him as a wise old warrior with a good set of morals that I hope we could all agree on, and a person who in his advancing age is pondering the wisdom of his honor and oath in the past vs. the I would say well founded mistrust of Varys. Simply introducing him as a p.o.v. character is going to have large consequences on the narrative for the reader , and i imagine for the writer as well as it is indeed a bold move, no pun intended, that works out wonderfully. We learn more about the Targaryens and Varys and we are personally introduced to a character who I believe is one of the great characters.

 

In many ways, this series is better than Lord of the Rings. Instead of a force of quintessentially good guys going up against the evil dark lord, you have a bunch of families vying for control of a continent that's been thrown into chaos more times than anyone can count. No one is good or evil; those who come closest to being "good" are the ones that generally end up getting killed. My advice to you is, anytime you think you can predict how certain events will turn out, your expectations will be wrong 95% of the time. This series delights in overturning many established fantasy cliches, and that combined with its gritty realism makes it one of the most compelling fantasy series ever written.

It is generally agreed upon that book 3 is the best. But be warned, you may want to throw your book across the room a time or two when reading it.