Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -RebelScum-, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I could agree to that interpretation, certainly. I think the over-riding point is that there wasn't necessarily anything malicious about Shae at any point. She simply wasn't what he thought/wanted, that being his first wife, who loved him in a sincere fashion and without ulterior motives.
  2. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    I'm thinking it's another attempt to show us how much he's under Mel's thrall right now. Not that I think it's necessary, and I wish they'd have kept his reason for execution from the book. The guy doesn't necessarily have to be Hand to try and secretly negotiate a surrender, after all.

    I'm just hoping Stannis' story doesn't end up as this season's equivalent to Bran or Theon's last year.

    Sent from beyond the Wall
  3. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    Re Shae: IIRC from the book, when Tyrion makes his last ditch effort to send her away for her own safety, he's far more up front with her about his reasons, and he flat out tells her it's for her own safety. Doesn't she then reply that he should join her and they should take off for the free cities?

    Re: Whodunit at the PW: As Iello posted in the GOT thread, who killed Joff is certainly quite obvious if you read the book. I followed Olenna around the whole time. Oh look, she's touching Sansa's ahair and shoulders over and over again! Hey, what kind of crap necklace did the drunk guy give Sansa, there's a stone missing?! Right Where Lady Olenna was touching her! Oh, look, Marge put the chalice right in front of her grandmother! Man, that drunk guy sure did pick a perfect time to usher Sansa away! The thing is, except for the last bit, I don't think you'd notice unless you knew to look, or are watching a second time and are specifically looking for clues. Even with Dontos, unless you know that the poison is the stone from the necklace, you could just assume that Dontos was waiting for the right moment to sneak Sansa away and took advantage of the situation. And I don't think the show set up the whole amethyst as poison anywhere near as clearly as the books, if at all.

    Re Oberyn: I don't think it's that out of character that he's so blatant about his lust for revenge. Remember, in the books his brother says repeatedly that he's took much of a hothead. As with the actors who play Stannis and Tywin, I think Pascal is doing a great job of portraying the role he's given, the problem is with how the writers are defining that role.
    Last edited by yankee8255, Apr 15, 2014
  4. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Re Shae: I think the seed has in fact been planted more or less from her first appearance that she is not playing solely for Tyrion. If you go back to her first few appearances in Season 2 or so, she seems hesitant at some points at answering certain questions and at one point says to trust no one in classic Littlefinger mode. In season 3 it's much less apparent, whether because the actress (like, ostensibly, other members of the cast) doesn't know the direction her character is going in or because of uncertainty about her character's arc on the part of the writers. In 3 she's overtly playing "hooker with a heart of gold who falls for Sansa, or Tyrion, or both" than a sleeper agent for Tywin.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Apr 15, 2014
  5. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I don't think the act of Olenna placing the poison in the cup is necessarily obvious. But it is obvious she's behind it. Other than Littlefinger (a co-conspirator) or Varys, there really aren't any other candidates. Oberyn's hatred of the Lannisters has been played up to a stupid degree, so I'll grant that one.

    It really wasn't much of a mystery in the book. In book mediums, Olenna's conversation with Sansa essentially goes "Are you SURE Joffrey is a horrible person? ARE YOU SURE? I really need to know so I can justify killing him."
  6. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Well played, sir, given the staging when Joffrey picks up the cup.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Apr 15, 2014
  7. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    What did people think of the Ramsey Moonraker reenactment at the beginning with the dogs? He's got a girlfriend?

    And what are they going to do with Vargo Hoat/Locke? I asusme he's not going north of the Wall, so I guess he'll be chasing after Rickon?
  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Jesus. The witless flailing in the TV show only thread is painful. Someone actually suspects Tywin.

    This is why I hate show-only people. They're idiots, co-opting something which is far above them and celebrating how dumbed down it is for them.
  9. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6

    Do you think it's that outlandish a theory? That Tywin could have come to the conclusion that Joff is such a psychopath that he can't control him, and that he'd rather take his chances with Tommen, who, at least for the time being, is willing to go to bed when he's told?

    I thought the bigger idiots were the ones who suspect Sansa: she certainly has a motive, but it's so totally not in line with her character.

    EDIT: Fully agree with your comment on Dinkleage in the other thread, though. I particularly love the expression he has when he's examining the chalice. So clearly not the killer, he's examining it for clues with a great look of curiosity on his face.
    Last edited by yankee8255, Apr 15, 2014
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Oh come on, Tywin as the killer? Killing Joff admits he can't win this battle of wills and that is simply not Tywin. Only the show-only people have such a shallow understanding of the characters that they might concoct such a theory.
  11. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6

    Oh, I agree it would be as out of character for him as it would be for Sansa. I'm just saying I could understand people feeling he had a motive. But, of course, so did Sansa.
  12. timmoishere Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    It's also funny how a lot of non-readers think Oberyn was behind it. Sure, he hates the Lannisters, but he was all the way over on the other side of the garden making out with Ellaria. He wasn't anywhere near the king's table. So unless he hired, say, Bronn to do it, there's no way Oberyn could have been responsible.
  13. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I did like the theory someone put forward about maybe it not being the wine that was poisoned but that it was just all the bird droppings in the pigeon pie.
  14. timmoishere Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Well yeah, when I first read the book, I thought Joffrey's choking was completely natural, just random chance from something he ate. And then Littlefinger explained it all, which quashed that theory.
  15. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    The show creators did intend to put the blame on a maximum number of people, though. The camera lingers on Oberyn and Tywin enough, and Sansa's escape is sufficiently without context to implicate her too. Yeah, logic eliminates most of these... but it's still fun to watch them speculate and clearly designed to do so, too.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
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  16. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    A rather odd comment by GRRM in an upcoming Rolling Stone interview:

  17. Sebulba-X •X C2 C3 MW RSA•

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2000
    star 6
    Interesting screen grab I didn't notice while watching...Joff is dying & Tywin immediately goes to "console"/protect Tommen.


    [IMG]
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  18. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    How... unexpected.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  19. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Might be just a timing issue.
  20. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Not to mention that it was plainly on show throughout season three that Joffrey was poop-scared of Tywin and only had such power as Tywin allowed him to have. Joffrey was never out of Tywin's control in the sense Tywin had tied things up as Hand sufficiently to keep Joffrey from terribly endangering the family on a macro scale. As Tywin pointed out - you really think a crown gives you power?
  21. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Yeah, when the Hand can send the King to his room without supper without reproach, there's... zero impetus for the Hand to have to murder the King...
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  22. yankee8255 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    That was the beginning of Season 3/ ASOS, though, which is a while ago. I'm not saying it's a good theory, certainly not one I would subscribe to, but I can understand the thought process. And we know Tywin likes to use weddings for killing people.


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  23. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    He also started defying Tywin a bit during one of the council meetings, and was showing increasing independence. It's reasonable Tywin might have seen him as a liability.

    That it's extend to killing him is a stretch but still, stranger things have happened in this series.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  24. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Tywin is not an idiot, and only an idiot would threaten a valuable alliance (there was no guarantee the Tyrells would settle for waiting for Tommen to come of age) by killing the king he worked so hard to win a war for. Tywin doesn't give a **** if he acts out a bit as long as the realm is stable, and he's quite confident in his ability to rein in his grandson.
  25. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4

    I rather enjoyed it. The Bolton storyline continues to be one of the main reasons I continue watching the show.

    And yeah, Locke's probably going after Rickon and Osha- GRRM has said that he enjoys Osha on the show to the point that he plans to expand her role in the books, and so now she doesn't disappear until TWOW.