Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -RebelScum-, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Skywalker8921 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2011
    star 4
    *snorts* The Guardian wasted no time splashing it on their front page. Idiots!
    Last edited by Skywalker8921, Apr 15, 2014
  2. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    So, um, anyone else thinking that rather than trying to shoehorn in Bronn marrying Lollys etc, they'll abandon any notion of Bronn defending Tyrion and it will turn out that Bronn has sold out to Tywin? That way a) the Shae situation is more apparently obvious to our duller TV cousins, b) Bronn won't fight for Tyrion, but Oberyn will, and c) they keep talking about how a sellsword is only as a loyal as the money he's paid, so why not have that come true?
  3. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Not only that; if TV takes over, the stupid people win because we lose the depth and complexity of the narrative in favour of LOL BEWBS AND VIOLENCE.

    But you're right, reading their "theories" is actually making us dumber.
    Volderon likes this.
  4. Volderon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2007
    star 4
    I think that's exactly what's going to happen and Bronn can take the place of the Kettleblack's all in one go.
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9

    Exactly. And the TV crowd can pretend it's deep drama and they're sophisticated for watching it.

    Oh god, Lauresomethingsomething is positing that Littlefinger killed Joff. Ha ha, ha, haaa, ha. Ha. Oh.
  6. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I could've sworn she was a book reader, or at least had lurked/posted in this thread. That sort of informed "theorizing" has happened before. Eh.
  7. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Indirectly, yes. Littlefinger was the one who prompted Dontos to befriend Sansa, and Dontos delivered the necklace/hairnet, and both Littlefinger and Olenna knew of the necklace/hairnet.
  8. Volderon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2007
    star 4
    An observation I had...why are the KG just standing around in the episode at the end? Only Jaime is with the king. There's 7 of them (who knows if Ser Arys left in the show) I know they need to protect the family as well but it seemed strange there was none.

    I haven't read the scene in the book in a while but I sort of recall KG being around the king...and more than one.
  9. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Littlefinger had a role, sure. But as the killer? No.

    Guy, I'd hoped she was a reader given how much Tolkien she's read. Would prefer to be wrong on this one frankly.

    I was initially Oded Fehr wasn't cast, but after this episode the actor playing Oberyn is perfect. I can't wait for him to circle the Mountain, saying over and over "Elia Martell, Princess of Dorne, you raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children".
  10. Volderon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2007
    star 4
    Was just looking at the TV thread and someone called a weirwood the "magic red tree."

    :(
    yankee8255 likes this.
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I don't get though that some people in there love the genre but won't read the books.
  12. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Have they ever said "weirwood" in the show? I know the histories on the BD's (which are glorious and among the best things the show has produced) have mentions, but I can't recall them naming the trees in dialog.
    darthcaedus1138 and Ender Sai like this.
  13. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5

    The Kingsguard is barely in the show, so I'm not too surprised at their lack of action. There's Trant, and then five seconds of Moore getting Podrick Payned, but that's it.

    Granted it's not like the Kingsguard is effective in the books.
    Last edited by Point Given, Apr 15, 2014
    timmoishere likes this.
  14. Volderon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2007
    star 4
    Yes, in the first season when Mormont asks the recruits who keeps to the Old Gods and Jon says yes. Mormont says heart tree and weirwood.
  15. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    And evidently Ser Preston wasn't killed during the riots after Myrcella left.
  16. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    I wonder if Oakheart will appear or if he's cut. Show Trant's too close to book Trant (that is, a horrible person) to believably take his place.
  17. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9

    You don't really hear much from Ser Arys before he goes off with Myrcella, and his role is mostly to be distracted by his affair. I'd like him in the show but can he be worked around? Probably.
  18. darthcaedus1138 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    I think the real question everyone needs to be asking is when Darkstar shows up.
    Ender Sai likes this.
  19. Volderon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2007
    star 4
  20. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    What are you talking about?

    In the first place, the Tyrells have no reason to kill Joffrey. Margaery is very clear about the confidence that she places in Loras to protect her. That's also a very reasonable plan, given that he is arguably the greatest knight in the realm. Further, from other incidents, we know that the Tyrells will intervene in King's Landing if Margaery is threatened. More to the point, Joffrey simply could not afford to mistreat her, as they've been entirely dependent on food shipments from the Reach for some time. So, in the first place, the Tyrells have no motive for doing this.

    Most importantly, though, they don't really have the necessary tools to carry it out. To think that any one of the principles would physically poison the cup in the middle of the festival is insane. There's no way to guarantee that one will escape notice, or more fundamentally that they will even get close enough to do it in the first place. It's an absurd, insane plan. So what we're really discussing here is using servants to carry out the task. In that case, the most important factor is the quality of each side's spy networks.

    Unfortunately for your theory, the Tyrell's network has been of distinctly low quality throughout the books. Most tellingly, they were completely outmaneuvered on the issue of Sansa. Not only were the Lannisters able to deduce their intentions, but they successfully foiled the plan before it could even begin in earnest. If their plots can be so easily unraveled, how did they manage the infinitely more complicated task of assassinating the sitting monarch in full view of the public? Or consider the response to the Faith's accusations against Cersei and Margaery. The Lannisters, who had an entrenched informal network of partisans within the city, was able to secure her release and negotiate a much scaled-back punishment without any public showing. The Tyrells, on the other hand, had to bring in a whole army, leaning on hard power to accomplish what they could not with soft. Finally, consider the behavior of the noble houses. Those that are most confident socialize openly. As the Starks felt more threatened at King's Landing, however, they restricted more and more of their dealings with non-Starks. Following this model, the behavior of Margaery and her ladies-in-waiting is very telling. While we have to put a huge discount on her behavior, since she genuinely does seem to care for people like Alysanne, the fact that someone like Megga Tyrell also seems to associate only with other Tyrells cannot be thusly excused. Instead, it's pretty firm evidence that they did not have an extensive network of contacts and spies within the city to be relied on.

    In conclusion, the Tyrell family had neither rationale nor resources to pull off this assassination. This fits perfectly with their character, too. While other noble houses play politics, the Reach helps people. Period. I don't know who killed Joffrey, but it certainly wasn't them.
  21. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    All that would be fine had that GRRM quote not existed.
  22. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    and the stuff about joffrey not being able to afford to mistreat margaery. as if he's a character known for making rational decisions that are best for the realm.
    yankee8255 and Ender Sai like this.
  23. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    My point was that even if he wanted to, he physically can't. Loras is always there, and he would never allow it. He cared about his sister enough to give up any chance of marriage or anything. He literally joined the Kingsguard just to watch over her. I somehow doubt he'd tolerate spousal abuse.
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Apr 15, 2014
  24. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    Wocky, this would be funny if you were joking.
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  25. Point Given Mod of Literature and Community

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 12, 2006
    star 5
    And what would Joffrey do to Loras afterwards? Do you think Olenna hadn't thought of that? I doubt she would want to lose two grandchildren to the King's whims.