Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -RebelScum-, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Saintheart Chosen One

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    The missing element there is the role that Varys's network may have played in all of those schemes. If Varys, for example, felt it was in the interests of the realm that a scheme to assassinate Joffrey should succeed, he could easily have set his agents to disinformation or indeed running interference to prevent the plot being discovered. That would not require him to necessarily meet with the Tyrells or put his network in their service, it would merely require that his little birds discover the plot and then do what they can to stop the Lannister network from also learning of it.
  2. GenAntilles Force Ghost

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    Jul 24, 2007
    star 4
    The Kingsguard did nothing when Aerys savaged his wife. The Kingsguard did nothing when Robert abused Cersei, with Jaimie on it mind you. If Loras took his vows seriously he would have to let it pass, or get lucky enough to kill the king without his brothers killing him first.
  3. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Olenna's motivation makes perfect sense. She wants her granddaughter to be queen, but she doesn't want her to be married to a monster. That's why she probed Sansa to be sure of Joffrey's true nature. So, eliminate Joffrey and make Tommen king instead.
  4. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    PG: Perhaps nothing. The boy can be cowed, as his early interactions with Tyrion show.

    Saintheart: Ah, but you've come to it. If Varys decided that Joffrey needed the die, then he is the natural person to carry out the task. Not entrust it to the haphazard planning of a family with no connections in the capital. Why would he only play an assisting role?

    GenAntilles: No one cares about that stupid crap. I certainly don't. The only allegiance Loras owes is to his family.
  5. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
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    To be fair, the implication in the show is that it's a different Kingsguard from the days of Aerys; Barristan was about the last of the A-team, the last one who seemed to cling to the Kingsguard's devoutly apolitical and nonjudgmental role as regards the king. Jaime, too, only became the kingslayer as a very last resort; by his own admission he stood there while Aerys burned the Starks and did nothing, too. One imagines he also contented himself with having sex with Cersei behind Robert's back. Also, I might've missed a part in the book, but (and this is going to come out so wrong whichever way I put it) Robert wasn't "that" abusive to Cersei, in the sense that he whacked her around once or twice on (what he would call) provocation, but not outside the standards of the time. Joffrey, though, is something else entirely, the very definition of a monster, and Loras Tyrell seems to be portrayed as a slightly silly hothead who's not likely to tolerate the way Joffrey seems to get his jollies with the ladies.
  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

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    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Wocky, why are you tilting at GRRM shaped windmills?
  7. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    I'd say because Varys, like Pycelle, like Littlefinger to a certain extent, survives only by manipulating schemes that arise to his benefit, not from initiating them. Varys's overriding intent is that Aegon Targaryen should take the Iron Throne, and much of his scheming (as he explains to the dying Kevan Lannister) is devoted to destabilising the realm to make Aegon's task that much easier.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Apr 15, 2014
  8. GenAntilles Force Ghost

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    Jul 24, 2007
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    All true, but would not Lord Commander Jaimie Lannister know Loras is a hot head and also that Joffrey is a sadistic monster? Wouldn't he then take measures to ensure Loras is never alone with the king like he was with Aerys?
  9. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    Your quote even says he "has more secrets to reveal" which is to suggest that it really wasn't Olenna.

    What could he do about it, exactly? Who could honestly defeat Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, in single combat? Him, using his bad hand? Meryn Trant? Come on. Let's at least try to have semi-realistic discussion, here.

    Saintheart: Varys is a prime-mover in the Targaryen resurgence that serves as one of the major plot threads in this whole series. You can't really say he "never initiates plots."
    Last edited by Jabba-wocky, Apr 15, 2014
  10. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Re Loras: is he actually that impressive at single combat, or is he just impressive at the rarefied and specialised aspect of combat known as jousting in tournament? I seem to remember he came close to getting killed somewhere through the series...

    As to Varys: he might initiate plots, but he's not the prime mover in the sense that until he kills Kevan Lannister and disappears, he never (as far as I can remember) wields the knife himself, so to speak. Varys only intervenes directly when he has no other choice, as seems to be the case with Kevan Lannister since he disappears entirely from the capital after that point.
  11. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
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    Varys' role is to just bide his time and let the Stark/Lannister/Baratheon conflict play itself out, weakening the kingdoms so that Aegon can return when the time is right.
    Saintheart likes this.
  12. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
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    Not necessarily. Jaime doesn't impress me as being especially bright -- not like his father or his brother. He might try to take measures to ensure Loras is never alone wih the king, but he can't protect Joffrey all the time. Even with 24 hour protection that's not possible.

    EDIT: There's also that Jaime doesn't really give a damn about Joffrey - when he learns of the boy's death his reaction is not exactly what you would expect from a father who's just a had a child murdered.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Apr 15, 2014
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

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    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Does it? Or does it suggest there's more to her role in the drama than merely looking out for her harlot of a granddaughter?
    yankee8255 likes this.
  14. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    This fits that model perfectly. He doesn't kill Joffrey himself. One of his birds that works in the kitchen poisons the chalice, and it can never be traced back to him.

    Yes, but as his assassination of Kevan shows, he also had to make sure that conflict was perpetuated. If the kingdom ever stabilized, any popular nostalgia for the Targaryens would be sapped, besides developing a force to repulse them. Joffrey was coming into majority, and would soon be able to ignore others commands. He'd be so tyrannical and erratic that another rebellion would be spurred before Fake Aegon was ready. It would succeed, stabilize the Seven Kingdoms, and put a death knell in Varys's plans. The only option was to kill Joffrey and perpetuate the status quo.
  15. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    He could -- or, on discovering a potent motivation and a plot in train, he could simply allow another noble family to take all the risks, thus never even endangering his little birds at all. Of those two choices, the second I think is more likely. Joffrey on the throne helped Varys's scheme since the boy eventually would alienate the entire realm and turn to Aegon The Conker-er. On the other hand, if he discovers a scheme to eliminate Joffrey, all it really does is slightly accelerate his plans at best -- since Tommen then becomes king, is even younger and less of a threat than Joffrey, and still keeps the Tyrell/Lannister antipathy in play as a destabilising element since Margaery could be expected to relaunch her same old Princess Diana schemes -- with Tommen this time. More, even, since the disparity in ages would mean Tommen would become more a son than a husband to her, and thus even more under Tyrell influence. Varys, in short, has no real reason to eliminate Joffrey but any number of reasons or motivations to profit from a scheme to eliminate Joffrey. And this is before we even get to Littlefinger's involvement, which on the books seems pretty heavily implicit.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Apr 15, 2014
  16. yankee8255 Chosen One

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    May 31, 2005
    star 6

    They never established the amethysts as poison. Heck was there one ""Promise me, Ned" in the entire first season? Would you be surprised if they never mentioned the name of the face-tree.-thingy?
    Last edited by yankee8255, Apr 15, 2014
  17. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    No, not surprised. A TV show would have a difficult time getting details, let alone a TV show that only sort of cares. Anyway, someone else already pointed out LC Mormont named the trees in the first season.
  18. yankee8255 Chosen One

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    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    I saw Volderon's post, was mainly just trying to move the conversation back to a place that doesn't require me to wear a tin-foil hat.
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  19. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Episode 3 will be an ideal time to mention the poison. Littlefinger will likely ask Sansa "Have you ever heard of a poison called black amethysts from Asshai? Your necklace was made of them." Sansa will then have a look of horror on her face until Littlefinger assures her with "I'll wager that at some point during the evening somebody came up to fix your hair and slipped a stone off your necklace at the same time."
  20. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    In that case, shouldn't they call them something else in the show? Because the stones were pale blue, they looked nothing like amethysts, much less black ones... :p
  21. yankee8255 Chosen One

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    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    [IMG]

    The damned stone's huge. Didn't anyone spot Olenna stirring vigorously to get the darned thing to dissolve?
    Last edited by yankee8255, Apr 16, 2014
  22. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    Littlefinger was even further away than Oberyn. He wasn't even at the ceremony. Yet, he's complicit in the poisoning.
  23. yankee8255 Chosen One

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    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    Oberyn prefers his poison on the tip of his spear, not slipped into someone's goblet.

    It seems the plot was Olenna, with assistance from Littlefinger, who used Dontos as his stooge. Not sure what kind of additional twists Martin thinks he wants to add to that. Maybe that Margaery was in on it, or even that Sansa, while not in on it, suspected what was going on all along.
  24. cbagmjg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2006
    star 3
    The Queen of Thorn's did. When the cup is placed within the old woman's reach & everyone else is fixated on Joffrey harassing Tyrion. It makes sense. But GRRM has already brought up the issue of whether Lady Tyrell is redeemable or not.
  25. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
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    With something like that, you'd imagine that it'd be a casing designed to crack or pop open easily, the contents would be emptied into the cup, then the casing would be disposed of elsewhere.

    The only ambiguity has to do with just who else was involved and their exact motivations. I think GRRM's 'surprises' point towards twists in motivation and other interests, rather than some sort of unexpected lone gunman being behind it all.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Apr 16, 2014