Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

As I recall, he isn't even near King's Landing in the books after he becomes all pious. Technically, while he's certainly had a religious reawakening, I don't think he affiliates with the Sparrows. Yet.

Edit: nvm, just checked- he's definitely a Sparrow.

 

IIRC, in the book, Lancel departs King's Landing out of shame for what he and Cersei did. The High Septon figured out what must have happened, but Cersei had him killed before he could take action. The next High Septon was more careful, and he laid the groundwork with the Kettleblacks to goad Cersei into making a critical mistake.

I might have a few details wrong; it's been a while since I read AFFC.

 

He's married in the books, but leaves his wife to join up. One of the Kettleblacks rats on Cersei after he's made false accusations about Margaery. The High Sparrow 'interrogates' the Kettleblack in question until he admits he made up the story about Marge but that he had an affair with Cersei.

 

Maybe Cersei will have Lancel killed and that will replace her killing the High Septon plot.

 

IIRC, Jaime bumps into him in the Riverlands.

 

Yeah I think Lancel was the new Lord of Darry

 

Without even discussing the Sansa rape controversy, I cannot believe how boring they've managed to transform the Winterfell plot on the show. In the books, that was my favourite part of ADWD. With no Manderly, Freys, Dustins and others, what's even the point? And now Brienne and Pod are set to swoop in and save Theon and Sansa?
****ing spare me.

 

I was never a big fan of the Jeyne Pool thing even in the books (I found it to be unnecessary there as well). BUT, at least there we had some political context that made it kind of make sense. The show seems to have removed a lot of the (interesting) politics of the North that made that particular subplot even semi-relevant, in favor of vague hints. So they removed the fun/interesting political stuff (which also gives context), but kept the rape? Yeah that makes no sense to me.

 

The question that I keep returning to, and NO ONE has been able to satisfactorily explain this, is why did it HAVE to be rape? Lets leave aside that the showrunners apparently feel like these characters are so interchangeable (despite them being completely different in the books) that they can be "swapped out," like they also did with Ellaria Sands, that's bad enough. But if their stated goal was to "empower" Sansa (which is fine), make her more important (also fine), and show off Sophie Turner's acting chops (not problem with that either), the why did it have to be this? Could they have done NOTHING else, something that didn't crap all over her character arc? Nope don't buy it.

Also, this is a character who's ENTIRE story for 4+ seasons has been about be abused, victimized, threatened, etc repeatedly and by multiple people. If ALL of that wasn't enough to make her "take control of her own destiny," then why would this one thing finally do it? I don't buy that writers.

 

The High Sparrow's behavior in this show doesn't even particularly make sense. On the one hand, they are trying to portray the group as religious zealots who are disconnected from political concerns in favor of pursuing their own agenda. They specifically highlighted the High Sparrow as having risen to power within the group because he credibly follows its credo. However, all his subsequent moves have been highly political. What, for instance, would be the point of bringing Margaery to trial for false testimony? The only possible reason to call her was to entrap her in the fashion that played out. But he could have as easily done it with the entire Tyrell family, or a good fraction of the nobles in King's Landing, none of whom would be inclined to admit in sworn testimony that the heir of a powerful family was homosexual. So why single out her in particular, except that Cersei dislikes her? And how doesn't it compromise his religious enterprise to use it as a tool that specifically advances the agenda of allies and disadvantages their enemies?

Literally the whole point that was interesting and surprising about the book version of this group is that they weren't so openly political, so that even moves Cersei thought she was making were able to boomerang back onto her. How was this a good or even sensible change? How is this group at all different from every other cynical, realpolitik-ing interest group in this fictional universe?

 

So after years and years of anticipation and fan theorizing, Howland Reed would basically turn out to be a complete and utter ****, then?

Well, it's Game of Thrones, so I guess that makes sense.

 

Bran ate Howland, guys.

 

The theory is that the High Sparrow is Howland Reed (Ned's old friend, who is the only survivor from the fight at the Tower of Joy, where Lyanna Stark died and Ned made his promise), not his son, Jojen Reed. And the 'Jojen paste' theory is a great illustration of just how wacky the theories about this series can get. There's only so many twists one story can bear before it turns into something out of MAD Magazine.

I've read the debates about HS=HR over at Westeros.org, and truth be told, it's one of the theories I like, but I'm not convinced it's true. Unlike R+L=J, there's nothing in the text to actually support it, even if it would fit very neatly.

 

I have never heard that theory before, and I thought I was up to date on all the ASOIAF theories. I've always assumed that Howland was still hanging out near Moat Cailin, not getting involved in the various conflicts.

 

It's very convoluted stuff, and purely speculation. Like I said, there's nothing in the text of ASOIAF, even between the lines (in which the R+L=J theory exists in gigantic capital letters) to really support it. More a case of creating a square block to fit into a square hole, where no other parts exist to prevent it fitting. Doesn't mean the square block belongs.

Regarding the Sansa situation - I'm on the fence until that particular plotline is resolved. I don't like the idea of Sansa being reduced purely to the status of victim (which will be the case if Theon/Reek redeems himself by rescuing her, as he does Jeyne Poole in the novels), but if it's a case of Sansa "taking one for the team" (apologies for the tasteless expression) in service of a larger plan that she's aware of, it might work. I'd like to think that Sansa might rescue Theon in an act of mercy, for all we know, or they might collaborate.

It's worth mentioning that the miserable marital situations of Cersei and Lysa in the novels have been somewhat overlooked while the outrage over Sansa's violation has dominated the netosphere over the last week - both were forced into marriage, and suffered in similar ways:

OK, it's not quite what one would imagine the sadistic Ramsay Snow might inflict upon his young bride (or did, in the case of Jeyne Poole), but it's still worth considering the intended and established context - a time and place where women were treated as fundamentally inferior to men, and little more than their property in the case of marriage.
In presenting such a context, there's a fine line between authenticity and exploitation (a line which the TV show of GoT has been shamelessly guilty of unzipping its pants and relieving itself upon in the past - Exhibit #1 being that ridiculous scene from Season 1 where Littlefinger muses upon his plans while a pair of prostitutes 'demonstrate' in front of him - "Now, play with her arse" and so on), however, I don't think last week's scene crosses that line - yet.

It wasn't graphic enough to necessarily be regarded as purely gratuitous, but it will come down to how things play out. If Sansa knowingly sacrificed herself to the perversions of Ramsay in order to serve a plan, so be it. One would hope that Ramsay will get his, ten times over.
If, however, the writers decided that Littlefinger simply tossed her to the Boltons as a piece of meat purely to serve his own plans, that's just sleazy, exploitative and downright nasty.

Sadly, I'm starting to suspect that this previously excellent show is falling apart due to the lack of source material giving any sort of direction when it comes to the specifics. Benioff and Weiss might have been provided with some broad strokes about the end game and a few markers about what happens along the way, but the rather cold, almost dull delivery of the current series indicates that they're losing their grasp upon the essence of the story. This latest bit of 'shock' might simply be a symptom of that, but I hope not.

 

See I cannot even really go with that. Even if this DOES lead to "empowering" her or "grasping her destiny" or whatever, then I cannot even really enjoy it because in the back of my mind I'll keep hearing "but you didn't need to resort to rape in order to get here." I'll freely admit that part of this is just a taste issue. I consider "rape is empowering" to be not only an overused/lazy cliché/trope, but also a flat-out vile one as well. And given that Sansa has already endured more torment/abuse in just a few short years than most people do in a lifetime, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to buy that THIS is what suddenly triggers that change in her if ALL of that other stuff combined couldn't?

 

That's very true - my point was that it'll be even worse if she's being used purely as an instrument for Theon's redemption, and given how much the show has been dropping the ball since last season, I could see it happening.
It'll be interesting to see what the 'controversial' scene involving Sansa in The Winds of Winter turns out to be, and how it fits (or doesn't) with what's going on in the show.

 

Part of me wonders if Martin is letting the show flounder just so whenever the books are released they'll be seen as a masterpiece in comparison to the show's version...

 

What do you mean "letting"? His role in the show, other than writing an episode, is simply being a consultant. The showrunners have final say on everything, and they have overruled him before.

 

Yes, his response to the controversy was essentially to say "don't look at me, I'm concentrating on writing the books."

 

As I understand it, the "controversial" chapter was one of the one's that's already been released and it was nothing like this. Also, GRRM apparently didn't make the "it'll be controversial" statement, someone else did.

 

I was talking to someone who made a good point. The HS/FM are supposed to be a pseudo-Medieval fundamentalist movement. But the show is having them act more like a modern-day fundamentalist movement. As I recall, the FM were not this sex-obsessed in the books for example. It seems like the showrunners are trying to do a parallel to some current fundamentalist movements, but it doesn't really work given the setting/context of the show.