Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

I'm guessing it's because the showrunners don't think the tv audience can imagine religious people not solely being focused on sex deprivation. Everything has to parallel modern things as the audience won't understand actual history.

 

They did care about sex in the books-- Marge's and Cersei's alleged adultery (and incest for the latter). They just didn't seem to care much about homosexuality. It's unfortunate that Loras was made a "gay cartoon" (rather than a skilled knight who happened to be gay) just so he could be busted by zealots consumed by strangely modern homophobia.

There are so many things that they're doing wrong with the Sparrow plot. They aren't supposed to be vigilantes who are somehow given free reign to do whatever they want. They shouldn't be able to arrest Marge for perjury just because some prostitute said she was lying.

 

That's right I meant homosexuality-obsessed. That's the most blatant attempt at drawing a "modern-day" parallel, and it doesn't really work in context. Then again, a lot of the context for WHY the Sparrow's even exist in the first place has been either removed completely from the show, or at least minimized.

 

There was periodically great concern about homosexuality. For instance, the Spanish Inquisition went out of its way to root out "sodomy" even though that really didn't have anything to do with its mission. It was sort of belatedly proposed that the practice was introduced by the Moors. Even then, though, no one really explained why that was deserving of punishment when embracing influences in architecture, music, dress, and other points of culture were seen as perfectly acceptable.

As Even points out, though, that particular plot point isn't really sensible, regardless of the attitude about homosexuality.

 

However, this plot point of the sparrows rooting out "sinners" will lead into Cersei getting into trouble in an episode or two. It's not just homosexuality that the sparrows are concerned with, it's all sorts of sex acts that they deem immoral. Remember how they humiliated the High Septon in the brothel? Cersei's exploits are right up their alley.

 

*sigh*
Oh look, Sansa's abused, miserable, weeping, and throwing her trust at anyone she can in the slimmest hope of escaping her awul situation, which results in her getting paraded in front of a mutilated corpse while her tormentor smiles in glee. Gee, where have we seen THAT before? That rape was sooo essential to her character development, wasn't it? It made her and Theon stronger, didn't it?
Now excuse me while I go bang my head against a wall at that and all the other things in this episode

 

Also, where has Roose Bolton gone during all this? The defense of Winterfell is the single most important thing to his long term plans. We've already established that Stannis is known to be marching on the castle? So where is he, exactly? Why is he leaving things to a son whose judgment he explicitly does not trust?

The only thing that's even remotely as important is not alienating Northerners. That was supposed to be accomplished by marrying Sansa, who is literally kept under armed guard at all times. This is now further reinforced by brutally murdering and torturing long-time hands at the Winterfell. You know, the sort that visiting dignitaries might have been familiar with. So how is any of this accomplishing his goal? Did they forget that the Sansa marriage thing was supposed to have a point beyond serving up another rape opportunity?

Probably, yes.

 

And of course, since they've already milked the shock value of Sansa being raped, they had to throw in a near-rape of Gilly, then have her and Sam have sex as a...reward for him trying to save her? In the books, they slept together after Aemon's death, drunk off spiced rum with all the Summer Islanders, not as a consolation prize for being a decent person.

This is absurd as hell.

 

I liked the episode. The Sansa rape was very problematic, but I feel that some times a lot of TF.N's issues arise from divergences. They don't even have to be bad, but some just do not at all like them.

 

I really wish Stannis had brought up Balon Grejoy in response to Mel's credits.

 

Sansa mentioned him as still being alive. Of course, she didn't know Jon was LC, but still. lol

 

Well, divergences can be interesting and good IF they make sense. GRRM's books aren't perfect, and sometimes the showrunners make divergences that are quite nice. One difference I liked, for example, were the Tywin and Arya interactions at Harrenhal from Season 2. Those were great and I looked forward to them every week even though I was perfectly happy with what went on in the books. A lot of the newer changes are simply...well, I believe they're attempts by D&D to make their adaptation different from the source material. Make themselves look clever with the new twists. Problem is, they aren't good changes at all. The Dornish plot in the books was much better, with a variety of Sand Snakes (and Arienne), a sensible scheme to put Myrcella on the Iron Throne, and a logical conclusion (it failed miserably but there's another plan). The show seems to be "duurrrr kill Myrcella for...revenge!" Winterfell was still problematic, but more interesting (Frey pies, anyone?) and didn't just seem to be relying on gross-out moments with flayed bodies and shock value with rape. Those are just two examples. I could list more.

 

Roose is a bad guy himself, but he's at least practical. So you'd think that, if he knew about this, that he'd step in (if only to prevent the entire North from burning once they learn what's been happening to Sansa).

 

I think the show is insinuating all the north died at the Red Wedding. House Bolton is the only house left, the rest are just unarmed peasants spread out too much to do anything.

 

Which is why this whole Sansa thing makes no sense. There's not even the political context for it that there was in the books. There's literally NO good reason for her to even be in this mess in the first place. And the best that the show can come up with is "vague half-baked revenge plot." LAME!!

 

Well if Sansa was in the Vale her storyline would probably be happier and she wouln't be a victim. And the writers have no idea how to write Sansa when she's not sad and a victim.

But the North plot was one of my favorites in the book. The show has made it my least favorite by cutting out everything enjoyable from it and replacing it with just 'lets make Sansa miserable'.

 

You and I must be remembering the Vale storyline very differently...

 

You mean not having Lyssa around and being planned to be married to Harrold Arryn and be Lady Paramount of the Vale?

 

So? She's still saddled with Sweetrobin, not to mention controlled by a creepy grown-ass man who wants her all for himself.

 

I mean how awful and creepy that little kid was and how awful and creepy Littlefinger was. I would've bet money at the end of ADWD that the next book featured Littlefinger raping Sansa. The books were heading her in a dark direction in the Vale. She wasn't escaping anything by being there.

 

Spoiler

Well, in the Winds of Winter chapter released, Sansa's doing much better for herself. She's got female friends, Lothor Brune being nice to her and offering comfort, Littlefinger teaching her how to charm Harry the Heir (which she does spectacularly), and there was a giant, twelve-foot lemon cake made for her at a feast. She admitted that she was happer than she's been in years. The editor who said there was a "controversial" Sansa chapter taken out of ADWD said this newly-released one was what she was talking about, because Sansa was more in control of her sexuality and had agency. So yeah, her life has gotten a lot better in the books.

Please use spoiler tags for TWOW preview chapters and other content not released in published books.

 

Sorry, I don't know how to add spoiler tags. Point is, show storyline is just "let's abuse Sansa even more and strip away any of her growing agency" while the book is much better.

 

Sansa's ongoing storyline in the Vale may be intended to parallel Arya's in Braavos,

Spoiler

as both are now 'roleplaying' 24/7, immersed in completely different personas - Arya through her apprenticeship with the Faceless Men, adopting multiple personas as training, Sansa more due to necessity and Littlefinger's machinations. Both still manage to do so as if born to it. The respective preview chapters from The Winds of Winter seem to reflect this, right down to the titles of the POV chapters bearing the names of their false identities - 'Mercy' and 'Alayne'.

Sansa being swapped for Jeyne Poole in the show doesn't match this at all, however. In the novels, at least she can be viewed as a sort of dark apprentice to Littlefinger, and despite the disturbing nature of their relationship, there's a sense that LF has a genuine respect for Sansa's potential, as well as paternal feelings.
Marrying her off to a notorious sadistic pervert simply wouldn't be on his radar, no matter how ruthless he is, if for no other reason than because she'd never trust him again, and therefore, be of no further use.

The only explanation could be that LF doesn't know what "the bastard of Bolton" is really like - in which case, he's an ignorant, blithering idiot, was never worth considering as a player in 'The Game of Thrones', and might as well get knocked off by the end of the series by walking into a wall.