Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Yes and no - I think GRRM is attempting to have the best of both worlds. There's the 'fantastic' approach, whereby the Targaryens are a genuinely magical dynasty (borne out by Dany having birthed the dragons) alongside the realistic approach, that would have generational inbreeding causing all manner of problems with future offspring - in this case, lunacy.
Ironically, Joffrey Baratheon seems to be the most obvious example of such unnatural unions, and he's not connected by blood to House Baratheon (related to the Targaryens) at all.

If incestuous inbreeding had been addressed in a completely realistic fashion in ASOIAF, Daenaerys Targaryen would have been a stunted, hideous figure, lucky to escape stillbirth. However, the magical/fantastic element is still there, so she was able to survive and looks likely to be the equal of her ancestor, Aegon the Conqueror.
The Targaryen custom of encouraging incest almost seems to be a result of their mystical madness - which just makes it worse on a biological level. A type of vicious circle pursuing what they regard as an inherent greatness.

My impression was that magic died out with the demise of the dragons themselves - which resulted from the civil war known as the Dance of the Dragons, in which most of the dragons in Westeros were killed. IIRC, those few that remained were kept in captivity, and didn't thrive, simply shrinking to sickly creatures the size of dogs.
It was the infighting, not the inbreeding, of House Targaryen that led to the dragons dying out, and the presence of actual magic in the world waned as a result. FWIW, part of the infighting arose due to certain Targaryens allegedly having affairs with members of other families.

 

My head is literally going to explode...
Game of Thrones' big advantage over the books: correcting George R.R. Martin's mistakes

 

His two biggest mistakes:

1. Selling the TV rights before he was finished.

2. Selling the rights to Benioff and Weiss.

Also the author is a moron. Where do people get the idea that the end (or "endgame") is the most-- only important part of a story?

 

The cure is worse than the disease. Dorne being the most prominent but hardly the only example.

And as with most things, I'm reserving judgement on Faegon. It could still give us a big pay off.

 

HOLY

 

For once, there is A+ writing going on. Best episode of several seasons.

 

Euron is even crazier than Ramsay!

Yeah, the Horn Hill scenes were quite excellent.

 

Really? That's what you think I meant?

Horn Hill was alright. Though I honestly think that Lady Tarly would have exactly the same prejudices as her husband and ever single other person in the Seven Kingdoms. I hope in future episodes they show more conflict from her, to make it clear that she is supportive of her son but not some anachronistically free-thinking modern person who thinks that everyone is created equal.

 

To what were you referring?

Honestly, I could see Sam's mother reacting this way in the books too, even if only to spite her husband. I sincerely doubt that is a happy marriage, and we know that Sam and his mother have the same good relationship in the book that they do in the show. And given how plenty of people in southern Westeros consider Northerners to be barbarians, she probably does not see much difference between a common woman from the North and a wildling girl (which is true, at least in the case of Gilly). If she was willing to accept one, why not the other?

 

is he just reading the chapters as he writes them at this point? is this how he's choosing to serialize The Winds of Winter?

 

Obviously the Margaery Tyrell part where everyone said she was the best and most upright.

 

Oh, right.

Did you forget the part where she admitted her entire good persona before this point was faked to get power and support? Technically, you should just now be getting on the Margaery Tyrell is awesome train.

Didn't like that part much myself, to be honest. Seems she broke too easily. I guess Margaery is made of stronger stuff in the books.

Anyways about that potential identity reveal:

Spoiler

I don't think Coldhands is Benjen. The backstory for how they came to be might be the same, but I doubt the identity is. GRRM has stated before that this is not the case, and it is implied that Coldhands has been around longer than Benjen has been missing. Seems like a case of the show combining two mysteries into one.

 

Also i can see a southern house liking the idea of having a Wildling just as a novelty. Imagine it would be neat to be able to go 'oh have you seen my Wildling servant girl from Beyond the Wall? My son in the Night's Watch brought her home when he went ranging."

 

Euron's a scary dude. Just how many depraved villains and apocalyptic forces does this series have room for?

 

Good people are always willing to admit they can be better. This is basically the exact same as when Obama wrote in his biography how terrible he was and how much he needed to change, and all his classmates have commented about how exemplary he was during the exact same period. Goodness magnifies goodness.

She "broke" easily because she never broke at all. She always wanted to be the best person possible, and this was one more way to do so.

 

From those awful "cliffnotes," I get the impression that Euron is far smarter and more calculating than the likes of Joffrey, Ramsay, and Gregor. He's a psychopath, but he knows where to direct his energies. And there's more evidence that he's not lying about having visited Valyria.

 

Hmm, Jaime and Brienne both on their way to Riverrun. The Freys and the Tullys are back in the picture.

We may see Lady Stoneheart yet!

 

At this rate, I'll have read half the book by the time it gets released.
After reading a few descriptions, I'm holding off on anything else about this Aeron chapter until I can find a full transcript, but it sounds utterly twisted. Best thing I've read about it says that "Euron Greyjoy makes Ramsay Bolton look like a choirboy."

As far as tonight's episode of GoT is concerned, quite happy, and what really blew my mind amounted to maybe two or three seconds of actual screen time, if that:

Spoiler

Guessing we'll be seeing more of that scene (or, rather, played out in a more conventional fashion), plus it begs the question - what's with Bran having this vision of the Mad King constantly screaming, "BURN THEM ALL!!!" juxtaposed with shots of the White Walker invasion? Beat them with Dany's dragons, or is she the real threat, being Aerys' daughter?

And hey, it's the Mad King! Finally! The Mad King!!!

 

So that was easily the best episode of the season. Not surprisingly it didn't involve some random shocking-death-for-shock-value moment.

Amazing.

 

There's a transcript of the Aeron chapter up - not sure if it's kosher to post a link, but it's called 'The Forsaken'. Shouldn't be hard to find.

Pretty messed up, and I'd put it at equal best of the TWoW preview chapters with the 'Mercy' chapter posted on GRRM's official site in 2014.

Spoiler

Aside from the torture porn and obvious implications of Euron Greyjoy having sexually violated his younger brothers on a regular basis during their youth, what really intrigued me was Euron's full suit of Valyrian armour, and Aeron's realisation, as a result, that he must have actually been to Valyria itself.
I was always under the impression that Valyria was a toxic, crumbling wasteland that was dangerous even to approach, let alone set foot on - well past being a barren wilderness that could be looted (and I assumed that Euron had been lying about having been there). If Euron was able to acquire a suit of armour from the place, what other relics and knowledge could have found their way into other hands? Or did he get the priceless armour and dragon horn from someone/somewhere else?

 

So was it just convenient for GRRM to read that chapter or did he use it before the show made a mess of the story lines?

 

When he does these readings at conventions, doesn't he usually have the audience vote on which chapter he reads? So it isn't always entirely up to him (I believe he's offered the Aeron chapter before).

 

So, best part of this last episode: Cleganebowl 2016 confirmed!

Also, we're totally seeing Lady Stoneheart this season, after this episode. We're getting back into the Riverlands part, and we both saw Catelyn in a vision but also heard of the Brotherhood Without Banners again, and specifically raiding Frey holdings.

Lastly, one thing I think everyone's skipping over... in the books, Jamie is still in the Kingsguard when he goes on his Riverlands vacation, right? But in the show he's stripped of his Kingsguard titles, and then sent to the Riverlands (as head of the army)?

Doesn't this mean he can literally turn around and say "Lord Kevan, since I'm now officially head of the family again as the eldest-born son, why don't you go back home right now and tend the family castle?"