Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -RebelScum-, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    I beg to differ. I think that she has developed more than you give her credit.

    I think it's realistic to have your world populated with more than one type of character. Not everyone in life is going to have a plan or be proactive. Sometimes people are passive and that's okay. However, that's not to say that Sansa is 100% passive. She risked a lot by agreeing to the Tyrells' plan for her to marry Willas as well as trusting the drunk knight (I forget his name) to help her escape, which required sneaking around.

    I found that I really enjoyed her POV characters because it provided insight into the court intrigue happening at King's Landing. Sometimes it was a welcome break from other more "intense" POVs.
  2. Obi Anne FF admin Celebrations, Europe

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    Nov 4, 1998
    star 7
    I've said it before, but I like Sansa because she seems to be about the only one who's actually acting like I can imagine a girl of her age (including myself in that age) doing.

    I also think all her romantic notions is a way for her to survive. When everything else around her falls apart she needs to believe that something of her old world is still the same, or go insane.
  3. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    or go insane.

    Like Arya.
    Darth Guy likes this.
  4. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    and you could argue that sansa gets put through much more than arya, even though she never has to kill anyone with a sword. she's not "stupid", she's eleven years old.
  5. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Sansa's courtesy and seeming naivety is literally her armor. It's how she survived King's Landing, and it consistently leads everyone- except perhaps Littlefinger, and I can't WAIT to see what happens if she finds out how things went down with Baelish and Ned- to underestimate her, and say whatever they damn well please in front of her. She's learning politics from Littlefinger, and she's gradually becoming more of an actor than a pawn. I also question whether or not she fooled the Lords Declarant with her "Alayne Stone" routine- btw, at least half of the Lords Declarant were pressing Lysa to join the war in support of Robb- but that's another story altogether.

    As for Dany, I enjoyed her in the first 3 books. I even understand why she's written in such a manner in Book 5- she's a 15-year-old playing at Alexander the Great, despite the fact that she's learning warcraft and statecraft on the fly. That doesn't make "OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH DAAAAAARIOOOOOOOOO" and the associated chapters any less of a pain to read.
    Handmaiden_Yane likes this.
  6. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    star 10
    This. I was first interested in Sansa because she was the only POV that made sense to me, that I could understand. I liked her all the more when I realized she was the only normal person. I know that a 21st century audience loves active, spunky people, that's where we get stupid annoying things like fake-Jeyne in the TV show (sorry, Talisa Maegyr) who are modern active feminists and who get the interest of the main characters by talking back to them, or stupid self-actualized hookers like Roz, etc.

    Heck, they even did this to Arya--"that's not me" instead of "that's not me, that's Sansa" just to make her seem more like a modern person. Bleh. It's stupid, tedious, and annoying. What's next, peasants talking about democracy and their natural rights? Everybody would agree that would be stupid and out of place in a fantasy medieval setting, but for some reason everybody wants people to act like modern, empowered ones. We want the tough everyman peasant, or the spunky female character.

    Bah. I find THOSE tropes to be bland, and I find a legitimately realistic female medieval character to be a pleasant change.
    Coruscant likes this.
  7. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    I was very disappointed with her in Daario, but I don't think you can really fault her for having a sex drive! Woman's got needs! And not all of them can be satisfied by Irri. :p

    And, especially when you consider how Hizdahr betrayed her and how scummy he was, perhaps marrying Daario would have been the better choice!
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    um she has Barristan the Bold right there, why would she need Daario? ????
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  9. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    He's old!

    But, also, fair point. Selmy's kind of a silver fox. However, she doesn't see him that way...doesn't she refer to him as grandfather or something? Idk.
  10. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    Sometimes, I wonder if GRRM should've gone ahead with his initial five-year-gap plan. For those of you who don't know, GRRM had planned to jump ahead five years after the ending of ASOS (if I recall correctly). GRRM says there were "flaws" in the plan so he couldn't go ahead with it, but honestly, look at the series without it. We've got two books of fans complaining about a lack of forward story movement, presumably because GRRM needs to reposition pieces for another ASOS-like pay-off, but also because he has to develop the characters so we can watch them grow.

    And yet, this character growth seems to be putting the story on hold. If GRRM had jumped forward five years, readers would simply accept that, for example, "Hey, Sansa seems much smarter!" or "Dany has come so far!" or "wtf Bran is a tree wtf..." :p We'd believe the character growth because we'd fall back on the explanation, "It's been five years!" With the expectation of inner thought monologues and memories of the past five years, of course.
    RC-1991 likes this.
  11. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    I can really see how the five-year gap would have worked better. Arya gets to train for 5 years in Braavos, instead of what will probably end up being less than a year. Jon gets to hold the Watch for 5 years, Dany gets to screw around in Meereen, Cersei drives the 7 Kingdoms into the gutter... Though I do have to question how Stannis maintains the new status quo for 5 years. The North putting up with Bolton rule for 5 years would certainly change how we perceive them as well.

    And yeah, of course Dany has a sex drive. Not to mention that she becomes sexually active earlier than (I'm assuming) most people in the real world. The marriage to Hizdahr was made for mature reasons, I'll certainly give her that. Responsibility over love, the good of her people over her personal desire, etc. Though that whole dead, rebuffed Quentyn thing is going to come back to bite her whenever she gets around to landing in Westeros.
  12. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    I wonder if Doran really thought Quentyn had a chance with Dany.
  13. SWpants Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2004
    star 4
    There's too much to quote about Sansa, and I know I'm a bit late, but yes, she's naive. But she's a young girl with her head filled with dreams. She's also grown a lot since AGOT and has a bit more hardened view of the world than she once did.

    I wouldn't have minded a five-year gap. That would be easily explained by Tyrion talking to a prisoner or something.

    I do hope we see Arya's training. That's one of the things I've looked most forward to from the start, since Arya reminds me a bit of myself.
  14. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    Quentyn was an idiot.

    "He was no dragon."

    I mean, really, what did Quentyn expect when he went down there? Obviously the Martells are going to be upset and grieve over the loss of Quentyn (except perhaps Arianne) but if they knew the whole story...perhaps they'd agree he deserves a Darwin.
  15. tom Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 6
    we've been seeing arya's training since agot.
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  16. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    It was probably a long shot all along, but he wouldn't have risked Quentyn if the plan was certain to fail, would he? And these are the same Martells/Sand Snakes who were seething to go to war over Oberyn's death, despite the fact that Gregor killed him legally in a fair fight.
    Last edited by RC-1991, Sep 26, 2012
  17. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    It wasn't certain to fail, I don't think. I think that if Dany hadn't already been pledged to Hizdahr, she would've married Quentyn. It would have been a very advantageous match. As it stands now, Aegon is probably her best bet.
  18. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    But Aegon's going to marry Sansa!
  19. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Assuming he survives the upcoming Dance of Dragons. Unless Martin wants to widow Sansa a second time.
  20. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

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    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    He hasn't technically widowed Sansa a first time, has he? Tyrion's still alive.
  21. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    Well... true. Okay, breaking up a second Sansa marriage.
  22. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

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    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
  23. Miana Kenobi Admin Emeritus

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    Apr 5, 2000
    star 8
    I'm worried that Tyrion might have been the best husband Sansa will get. Lord knows what Martin has in store for her.
  24. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2002
    star 6
    Like Bhaelish making the sick and twisted decision to marry Sansa, because she reminds him of Cat? [face_sick]
  25. RC-1991 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2009
    star 4
    That will be the day that we see just how much of a backbone Sansa has developed. She's kept Petyr and his affections at arm's length so far; she wouldn't put up with a marriage.

    Alternatively, if the theory that Blackfish is heading to the Vale turns out to be true, then he might stop Petyr in the nick of time, though that would remove a lot of agency from Sansa.