Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Agree that there's an element of truth in that. It's the case in almost all adaptions from novels. Like I said, the LOTR crowd would write pages complaining about the dumbing down & simplification of that story. To a degree it comes down to the difference in the mediums. You can get across far more detail on the page. To do the same on screen requires alot of exposition. So a trade-off is needed. How well this show has done that is debatable.

 

All this talk reminds me of this

 

Hearing talk of a 2017 release

 

While torture was certainly employed in medieval Europe, it was rare that monarchs and senior nobility would take such an enthusiastic personal role in its administration. Several that did are rightly notorious (de Sade, etc). Because even in societies where this happens, having it come easily/naturally isn't really a normal phenomenon. As it regards Theon specifically, I noted that it had a purpose. But there was no point in showing us a third or fourth onscreen depiction. Certainly, we grasped very early on that he was being tortured, and that it broke his spirit. Nothing was added by showing us other specific instances of that torture.

Yeah, or what about a co-conspirator that murdered his best friend, schemed to take over the whole continent, pushed his son out of window (at least crippling and probably killing him), and punitively killing his children's pets after hunting down another one of his daughter's like a convict? Would Ned Stark be so honorable then? What do you think, that he would try to pull her aside in private to warn her because he didn't want her to get---

Oh, wait. Yeah I guess the actual narrative disproves your attempt at a counterpoint. Sorry.

 

The extreme & prolonged nature of the torture was important in showing the extent of his breakdown & the almost complete removal of his persona & self-image. Showing just 1 or 2 instances of torture wouldn't convey this as convincingly.

What a terrible comparison. In that case there was suspicion but no proof about Cersei's personal role in both the King's death & Bran's injuries. There was also the matter of her innocent children's safety which was the motivation for him showing that mercy. The pet dog isn't even worth mentioning with these other matters. As a comparison to Sansa's situation with Ramsey, Ned would need to've been personally beaten & raped over a long period. Then his rapist would just hours earlier murder his youngest son, a child of around 8 years old. Then we'd see how calm & composed Ned's retribution would be.

 

It's impossible to know 100% for sure what Ned would have done, but no, he probably would not have let anyone be eaten by dogs. Aerys II killed Rickard Stark by burning him alive in his own armor and made Brandon Stark strangle himself trying to save him. Yet Ned still severely disapproved of Jaime killing Aerys. His sense of honor and justice was very, very important to him and despite all his PTSD nightmares and pain he only abandoned it once for a really good reason.

Of course, Sansa was only raped because of a stupid plot contrivance.

 

1. The torture can still be extreme and prolonged and happen offscreen. For instance, do you think that Theon suffered nothing but what we actually saw onscreen? Personally, once I got the pattern of what Ramsay was doing, my imagination could fill in plenty of horrible details. Theon's brokenness after the fact fills in the rest. Since they're relying on a lot of implied and offscreen events anyway, I don't see why we needed to see so many of them. Do you have a different take?

2. What does "suspicion" have to do with anything? Ned believed all those things about her. We have his first person internal monologue to testify as much. People act based on what they believe to be true. He, believing all those things, didn't become some torturing sociopath. He tried to handle her the same way he would other cases.

3. If you're making the general point that people can be driven beyond their normal moral boundaries, they certainly can. But either before or after the fact, they tend to struggle with it. Sansa has never done either. Nor has the show suggested she will or should. It's too busy cheerleading the stupidly "awesome" moment where another human being gets eaten alive. Because that's a perfectly normal thing to enjoy and there's no room for moral complexity ever on this television program.

 

It's a silly guessing game bcs being beaten & raped over a long period would change a person, no matter who they are. So you guys are talking about Ned Stark but the Ned Stark who would endure all of that would be a different Ned Stark. Just as Sansa is a different person due to her experience & Theon is due to his. If you think that Ned after personally suffering through that & then watching Rickon murdered by that same person wouldn't administer brutal justice then, okay. That's an interesting guess. My guess is different.

Your opinion here is reasonable. Mine is that Theon's broken persona & complete submission was so extreme that we needed to see the extent of his suffering. Had we not I personally wouldn't buy (quite as well) scenes such as when Theon wouldn't cut Ramsay's throat with the razor. Or more importantly when he was too scared to leave with Yara.

Believing & knowing are two different things. Sansa didn't believe that Ramsay raped & beat her, or that he killed Rickon. She knew it. And there were no innocent children who would be collateral damage, as was the case had Ned exposed Cersie. This comparison is weak.

 

I thought Ned disliked Jamie killing Aerys because Jamie was Kingsguard and as such was betraying his oaths. I mean if Robert infiltrated into the Red Keep and did the same thing Ned would have no issue, the only reason Ned made a fuss about it was because Jamie betrayed his oath.

 

One thing that always leaves me disappointed in the show is people's motivations. It was a big reason Tyrion-Tywin was such a disappointment. And now it diminishes Kevan's death as well -- Varys kills him in the book because he's governing too well, he wants Cersei to take over again so she can run things into the ground again, making the invasion far easier.

 

Not to mention it finally just drives home that all the societal taboos are just gone now. Guest Right? Meaningless. Inheritance? Meaningless. Kinslaying? Meaningless. Sacrilege and Blasphemy? Meaningless.

Thousands of years of tradition and societal rules and conduct... all gone now without a complaint.

 

my new band is called Lord Varys and the Murder Children

 

You'd have to think so - if GRRM was so disappointed not to have it finished by NYE 2015/16 in order to have it released before Season 6, he can't be that far off, can he? It's hard to tell - it seems like most of the released preview chapters of TWoW have been confirmed to have been originally intended for A Dance With Dragons.

Anyway, to put aside such frustrating misery and the current griping about the show, an interesting detail was pointed out to me recently relating to the TWoW chapter read by GRRM at Balticon, which has been transcribed here: https://angrygotfan.com/2016/05/29/the-winds-of-winter-the-forsaken/

(Sorry if it's been already pointed out, but spoiler tags tend to confuse matters)

Spoiler

The chapter is largely about Aeron Damphair and captured clerics of various other religions being tortured by Euron Greyjoy, with some disturbing implications regarding Aeron and Euron's early years as brothers. It ends with this:

And here's a passage from A Clash of Kings - one of Dany's visions in the House of the Undying:

 

One would have thought he would only be delayed a few months or so, given how late he gave up on it being released before the new season.

But now I would imagine that he had some larger problems that made him have go back and rewrite things he thought were finished. Who knows at this point if he's been able to solve the problems. So it's anyone's guess when he'll be done.

 

And she'll be next season's Ramsey doing crazy evil things (more so than blowing up the Sept of Baelor, so, I don't know, building a Death Star I guess) so everyone hates her right up until she's killed in the last episode and the internet goes nuts.

Amazing.

 

I don't know that Cersei needs to do anything evil for the internet (and the writers) to hate her. As I've mentioned before, most of the evil things book Cersei did were given to other characters (e.g., killing Robert's bastards, sicking Mandon Moore on Tyrion) or made much more sympathetic (e.g., trying to outmaneuver a version of Margaery who's transparently manipulating her underage son-- including essentially raping him-- and trying to usurp Cersei) or removed altogether (her penchant for having innocent people tortured and experimented upon). I wouldn't be surprised if the show continues to just make her the Designated Villain without her doing anything particularly villainous-- the latest episode excepted, of course. She's a woman in a position of power who's opposed to our Heroes and that's enough.

 

jon snow is bernie sanders and cersei is hillary. dany is trump. tyrion is ben carson. jeb is hot pie

 

Dude, he let the Wildings through the Wall. He's not opposed to free trade and unrestricted migration!

 

yeah, well, it wouldnt be the first time the show writers ****ed up characterization

 

Facebook does keep telling me that Hillary has found the perfect dress for the inaugural ball


tedious, I know. sorry

 

Oh **** you're right he's stannis

 

Nice political analogy there, Rogue_Ghost.