Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Isn't that pairing equally bad? People who lived as siblings all their life are deeply problematic for many of the same reasons as people who are actually related. This isn't just an issue of recessive genes. Intra-household sexual relationships is a huge can of worms.

 

Wouldn't be the case with Dany & Jon. They just met as adults. No familial relationship at all.

 

I was referring to the previous poster's note about Jon and Sansa.

 

The narrative in the books makes it VERY clear that Sansa and Jon never grew up close. At all. Often, when they talk about their families, they'd say something like: "I miss my siblings. And Sansa." Or "She missed them all. Even Jon." to roughly quote the books. Sansa followed her mother's example by shunning Jon. Yes, they grew up in a sibling context...but again, the narrative takes steps to ensure that the reader knew they were never close as anyone else in the family. I wonder why that is...?

 

I agree that Jon will be disgusted when he finds out the relationship. But I was just arguing that it would automatically be a creepy abusive relationship.

 

Can't see how Jon would care. He's been raised in a great house. He's used to seeing cousins & other non-sibling relations getting hitched. As was just posted, his own grandparents were cousins. Among the noble houses, an aunt-nephew pairing is no biggie. As for Dany, a Targaryan will find it even less of an issue.

 

Both the AV Club's expert review and especially The Atlantic's roundtable do a great job of analyzing the plotting disaster that was last night's episode.

 

No. Or the valonquar, even though people act like it's in the show.

 

Iirc, in the books, the prophecy is shown in the House of the Undying. They changed those scenes significantly in the show, left a lot out, not sure if the Rhaegar part was left in or not. At his point, even if it was left in, I expect the show will just ignore it.

 

There's plenty to complain about so far, but I think one of the lamest instances of the show departing from ASOIAF tonight was fan-favourite Tormund being saved from certain death by his new BFF, the Hound, another fan-favourite. When GRRM puts someone into a 'certain death' situation, it ends with death, no matter how popular or likeable the character is. No last-minute rescues or reprieves. It's one of the reasons the show (and yes, the books) became so popular, it kept you on your toes. No one was safe.

Now, however, the showrunners can't bear to sacrifice anyone in a suicidal mission beyond the Wall past a minor character like Thoros of Myr and a couple of unnamed, barely seen goons who might as well have been the red-uniformed officers in the original series of Star Trek unlucky enough to set foot on a new planet first, doomed to get their brains sucked dry by a misunderstood alien, or just vaporised.

But hey, good old Tormund is dragged almost completely underwater on a frozen lake by four or five wights - nah, he'll live to fight another day, and even start a new bromance with miserable old Sandor Clegane. I'm sure we've got some adorable scenes over chicken and ale to look forward to between these two. Maybe even a love triangle involving Brienne, yay!!!

That said, I do like Arya's arc. The only real badass left, and one of the few to still resemble her ASOIAF character. Unfortunately, the show has eliminated the possibility of her long-rumoured endgame:

Spoiler

Killing her own mother, who has become the purely vengeful Lady Stoneheart, as a mercy killing.

Perhaps a touch too neat as a 'twist', but it would certainly tie into the supposedly bittersweet ending of the series that GRRM has promised.

As for everything else, the show has confused matters with a very predictable Hollywood-style progression of the narrative and completely turfed a number of plotlines. Upside being that whatever we get in TWoW and the posthumously constructed A Dream of Spring can only be a) a surprise; b) completely different; and c) probably better.

 

Well, in the books it's pretty clear Dany can have more kids again at the end of the last book (conceptually). In the show, nada.

 

I don't know about that. The prophecy stated she'd never bear a living child again, and Dany acts like she still had a regular cycle, hence her confusion as to when she bled last. I believe she had a miscarriage, still proving the prophecy correct.

And since GRRM loves the War of the Roses, there's historical (and medical) precedent, in the books at least, that Dany could never have a successful pregnancy again. Why? She had the pregnancy and stillbirth at far too young an age. Her story could be compared to Margaret Beaufort, mother of Henry VII. Poor Margaret gave birth at the tender age of 13, and it was so traumatic for her young, small body that she never had another child. Dany was on the cusp of 14 when she conceived, and her stillbirth was VERY traumatic on her body. Plus, the narrative pointed out several times that she was a thin, slender girl. Not that slim girls can't have successful pregnancies, but combined with her age, Dany was probably too underdeveloped to handle a pregnancy. So Mirri might never have cursed Dany at all. As a healer, she might've recognized the signs of a girl being forced to bear pregnancies at a young age, and not handling it well. She could've probably helped Dany recover better to give her a future chance to conceive, but that likely didn't happen. Obviously Dany was older in the show, but bad miscarriages/stillbirths can still lead to difficulty conceiving or carrying to full term. Maybe magic will cure her of her infertility. Or maybe she's just been doomed because of people using her barely-pubescent body for political gains, ensuring she'll never carry a pregnancy to full term again

 

Mirri did not say Dany would never have a child again. She said it would happen when other seemingly impossible things do, which Dany took to mean she would never have children. But prophecies in ASOIAF have a habit of being misinterpreted... "sun" could be "son," for example, and it would fit Quentyn.

 

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

And she was totally having a period at the end of the last book...

Also, sun (Dorne) sends Quentyn from the West (rises) to the East (dies, sets). She has her period on the Dothraki sea (dry) and there are a couple of different interpretations of the mountain / Mountain part.

 

Regardless, we can rest assured that in the series it will all happen in the most literal and stupid way possible. Powered by the magic of REVENGE.

Oscar-worthy material right there.

 

I finally watched Battle of the Bastards for the first time. Sums up the series perfectly. Amazing spectacle, idiotic plot.

 

You're absolutely welcome! I despise how these two are being written this season. Their plotline together has de-evolved into catty, misogynistic drama that has no place here, especially when all the bros had a good fifteen minutes or more to bond and catch up and suddenly be bffs (and impy that they might rape Gendry?? Okay, what???). But it's obvious that the writers are taking the opinions of casual viewers into careful consideration, as many of the comments are praising the scene where Arya threatens to skin Sansa's face off. I see quite a lot of "Arya is just warning Sansa to wise up and face reality. Arya's so amazing because this proves she's really, really subtly playing Littlefinger the whole time by pretending to care about the letter!" Um, no, it's just typical misogynistic writing, that girls will immediately be at each other's throats, doubting and manipulating one another because that's just what women do. It's, again, nothing like in the books.

 

Out of all the characters on this show, you know who I need to know will get a happy ending? Hot Pie. He'd better make it out of this unscathed, I swear. He's the true hero of this series, with his steady, enjoyable job and his helpful attitude. And he had character growth as well! Hot Pie should train the cook for whoever sits the Iron Throne at the end of this. He shouldn't become the cook himself, though, since he gets within 5 ft of that Throne and he'll die in a freak accident or something.

 

I'd like to think they considered using Vangelis to score the bits with Gendry running back to Eastwatch.

 

Everyone's culture is the same unless it involves some racist or sexist caricature. In the case of Dorne, it's both!

 

The writers had to squeeze that in to find SOME kind of justification for why Jon would bend the knee, because "he's a colossal idiot that's putting his faith in someone who hasn't truly earned it" doesn't work, and "he's a horny, colossal idiot that's putting his faith in the hands of someone he wants to bang" really doesn't work.

Every military endeavor of Dany's on Westeros has failed on some level--large or small. Some of that has to do with poor strategies from her advisors, and some were plain bad luck because her opponents had magical plot powers, but otherwise, she's failed. For instance, Dragonstone was running out of food. So let's get a dragon and attack a supply wagon for food. Good idea! But instead, she burns all the food in the process and never mentions the food shortages again. Oh, and the dragon got injured by a giant dang crossbow. Whoopsies. But the male head and heir of a House got burned. Cool. Took at those targets, at least. And some psychological consequences were explored just a little bit, if Jaime's reaction was anything to go by. But that's not a lot to go on compared to what Dany lost. Even though it was the ancestral seat of the now most powerful House in the Seven Kingdoms, Casterly Rock was treated as a loss when compared to how many ships and Unsullied died. Also, all of Dany's Essos plans ultimately failed until (in the show at least) she decided to just torch everything and start over again in Westeros. Dany is a good conqueror...until she tries to stick around and rule, or until she doesn't put in enough effort to ensure whatever place she conquers stays in her grasp once she's out of sight.
And we're supposed to buy that Jon knows about at least some of this, and is ready to say "eh, I don't want any more innocent people to die. Let's follow her wise and sound judgement. She seems like a good queen, because she saved me! Well, she wasted a dragon saving like 7 people from beyond the Wall, but what a wise and good queen. I'll follow her." Buddy...NO.