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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -RebelScum-, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Plus at least there's a phonetic similarity between Jon and Aegon.
     
  2. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Would suspect that Jon's real name was one of the bullet points they received from GRRM.
     
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  3. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Why? What ENDGAME significance does it have? And they don't have to follow his word. They actively avoid following GRRM's plotlines and characterizations anyway.
     
  4. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Reportedly they have a bunch of story "tentpoles" received from Martin that they're using to plot out the rest of the show. Who knows but I'd guess that Jon's name would be a detail they'd both want to be in sync with. The better question is, why have his birth name be different?
     
  5. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    Does anyone know what GRRM set at his "rules of magic"? Like a list of "do not's" while writing?
    (like how JKR clarified no magic could bring back the dead, or anything conjured out of thin air can't last more than a few hours)


    Magic seems much more "realistic" in these works... we never see someone like Melisandre
    -conjure anything out of thin air (even energy like lightning or fireballs common in most fantasy)
    -transmute anything (like lead into gold, water into wine)
    -transform someone or herself into an animal
    -make transportation easier (flying broom, apparate)
    -make more extreme magical potions like love potions or truthtelling potions
    -use telekinesis)
    -use spells/curses like a killing curse or torture curse
    -be telepathic
    -talk to animals
    -extending the space inside something
    -have invisibility objects (like a cloak or ring)
    -be able to animate objects
    -improve her senses or physical strength/reflexes/agility
    -truly heal someone, or preserve a place/thing
    And no ghosts.


    Yet there's:
    -many magical creatures and nonhuman races
    -magical potions like wildfire
    -resurrection
    -reanimation of the dead
    -communing with and summoning of shadowy spirits
    -weirwood trees
    -skinchangers and warging that can even lead to possession
    -ways to disguise appearance and extend life/youth indefinitely (Melisandre's ruby)
    -see across great distances and astral-project to someone else (glass candles)
    -divining the future
    -seeing into the past
     
  6. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    Why should Jon's real name have endgame significance? Martin has no problem with his characters having similar sounding or identical names, so why do you think he wouldn't have two competing Aegons in his story? The point is still that you're utterly convinced of something without any information to support it (aside from a crack at the producers because sometimes they've done things differently). If I'm sitting down with Martin trying to get a sense of where the story goes and I've guessed correctly that Jon is a Targaryen, then one of my questions is going to be what his real name is. And unless it's a really stupid name, I'm going to follow it because there's no point in being different and also the character's still going to go by Jon anyway. It sounds like you just don't want his name to be Aegon, regardless of what it turns out to be in the 'vaporware' books.
     
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  7. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    No, I don't want the name to be Aegon because it's stupid and pointless for Jon to have the same name as his older half-brother. If it turns out he was given that name in the books, I will be disappointed. There aren't two major characters in ASOIAF with the same name. The only people who have the names of major characters (e.g., historical Danaerys Targaryens) are long dead and rarely mentioned, and even most characters with the same first name have it for good reason (Jon Snow/Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon/Robert Arryn, the Walder Freys). There would be no significance to the name Aegon for Jon's character except that apparently Rhaegar couldn't think of three names.

    And it will never be his "real name." The name he's always known and always gone by is Jon Snow. A big part of his arc is claiming an identity separate from the Starks (and Targaryens, though he doesn't know that). His heritage matters for prophecy, not the in-universe politics. I doubt he's going to claim the Iron Throne even if he somehow finds out both his "real name" and that his alleged older half-brother is a fake. His mentor, Aemon Targaryen, refused the Iron Throne when he was offered it.

    Also, lol, "sometimes they've done things differently." Man, have you even read the books? FfC and DwD must have been my fever dreams.
     
  8. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    "Stupid"..."pointless". Going a bit overboard aren't you? Maybe Lyanna chose the name as a tribute to the son Rhaegar lost. How is this a big deal??
     
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  9. redxavier

    redxavier Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 23, 2003
    No significance to Aegon that you can think of. Arguably, Aegon has great meaning for the Targaryens and for Martin personally. Not that the name has to have significance, I'm not sure why you insist that it must. If it's Aemon or something else, it doesn't remotely change anything or lend it any greater significance. Besides, Rhaegar may not have named him, but rather Lyanna, so that point's may not be accurate. Further, as Aegon is believed dead, the argument that there is duplication in the naming of Rhaegar's children is moot and it's neither stupid nor pointless. It's just naming a child after a dead relative. Why is it ok for some characters to do this but not others?

    Given that the show has deliberately avoided the same or similar names I'd consider it very bizarre for them to suddenly reverse that policy unless directed. This is the main character after all.

    On a different note, I'm hoping that Young Griff really is the older Aegon. It makes things more interesting. These 3 (the exile, the presumed dead, and the secret) should be heads of the dragon.
     
  10. timmoishere

    timmoishere Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2007
    Rhaegar, Elia, and their kids, had been dead for at least a few weeks when Aejon was born. Lyanna must have known this, and wanted to honor them.
     
  11. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Yeah!

    Assuredly in the middle of a raging civil war where the roads were nigh impassable, their very lives were at risk, and the capital had just fallen, priority one for a Targaryen loyalist would be to send news of the death of Rhaegar's legitimate children to someone whom, for all they know, is just his 16 year old paramour. . .

    Oh, wait.
     
  12. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Yes, Aegon has meaning for the Targs. So do (male names) Daemon, Viserys, Jaehaerys, Baelor, Daeron, Aemon of course-- and there are many others. Most Targs aren't named after Aegon the Conqueror.

    I was not the first one to insist that it had significance. Someone was saying Aegon was supposed to mean something greater. As far as Jon's character goes and the prophecies that are apparently about him, it does not. Aemon is a good alternative, given that he was mentor to both Jon and his father and Jon tries very hard to continue the maester's legacy. Plus there's also Aemon the Dragonknight to consider, who has some similarities to Jon e.g., he renounced all claims to titles, had a doomed relationship.

    Again, there's no precedent in ASOIAF for someone being named after a sibling, which is a seed I think GRRM would probably plant if he were going for two Aegons as brothers. He foreshadows practically everything. If members of dynasties are named after people, they are people who had achieved some sort of renown. Not dead babies.

    There's such a mountain of evidence for him being a Blackfyre that if it amounted to nothing, it would be-- yes, stupid and pointless.
     
  13. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

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    Oct 13, 2003
    The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy knew that Rhaegar, Elia and her children were dead. Ned asks why they aren't on Dragonstone with Viserys, and either the Queen or newborn Daenerys. It was probably months after Rhaegar's death. They definitely knew. Lyanna knew Robert had won.
     
  14. yankee8255

    yankee8255 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 31, 2005
    Keep in mind, Aegon V a given the nam despite hi not having a snowball' chance in hell of becoming king when he was born. It's a common name in the family, among many others.
     
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  15. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    Yeah, this can't be stated enough.

    It actually stood out to me when going through the various family trees because it was so contrary to expectations. In medieval Europe, naming your latest kid after a predeceased one was extremely common. In Westeros? Nope.

    I mean, let's look at Aerys II's children:

    Rhaegar - Shaena (died) - Daeron (died) - Aegon (died) - Jaehaerys (died) - Viserys - Daenerys

    If GRRM had wanted to establish precedent for this kind of necronym, he'd have probably started there.
     
  16. Miriedis

    Miriedis Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    May 23, 2015
    Also, a new interview with Isaac Hampstead-Wright in Variety made the season arguably worse, if that was even possible. So according to him, a scene was cut that explained how Sansa knew Littlefinger was playing them all:
    "We actually did a scene that clearly got cut, a short scene with Sansa where she knocks on Bran’s door and says, “I need your help,” or something along those lines. So basically, as far as I know, the story was that it suddenly occurred to Sansa that she had a huge CCTV department at her discretion and it might be a good idea to check with him first before she guts her own sister. So she goes to Bran, and Bran tells her everything she needs to know, and she’s like, “Oh, s—.”

    http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-finale-cut-scene-1202541941/

    So no, people trying to defend the show, it wasn't that D&D were masterminds in making Sansa and Arya working against Littlefinger the entire time. Arya really did threaten to skin and kill her sister, and Sansa really was thinking about taking out her sister before she was skinned in her sleep!
     
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  17. AmazingB

    AmazingB Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jan 12, 2001
    All of this arguing about Jon's real name ignores the fact that his real name, by royal decree, is Jon Stark.

    Did they do that in the show? I don't even remember any more.

    Amazing.
     
  18. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I was arguing about the name longer than I should have because I'm annoyed at people pretending that Game of Thrones is at all close to being a faithful adaptation. It's not. Not in plot, characterization, setting-- not even in spirit.

    Also, Jon turned Stannis down so his name is still Snow.
     
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  19. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

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    Aug 16, 2002
    Oops, forgot about Robb. Oh well.
     
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  20. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I don't think they did in the show, but could be wrong.
     
  21. PimpBacca

    PimpBacca Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2015
    I have a question, do we know if the winds of winter is a single book or is it going to be split in to two?
     
  22. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    If the damned thing ever comes out, it will likely release as a single volume in North America but be split up into multiple volumes in other languages/markets. That was the case with previous books as well.
     
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  23. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

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    May 4, 2003
    There is no such as Winds of Winter. There never will be.
     
  24. PimpBacca

    PimpBacca Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2015
    I'm confident we will get our hands on Winds of Winter, I'm just not so confident on the Dream of Spring.
     
  25. Barriss_Coffee

    Barriss_Coffee Chosen One star 6

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    Jun 29, 2003
    I was bored in traffic and started to think about deep thoughts on the meaning of life, and then I started to think about video games, and then was like whoh, what if GRRMartin did that thing that half of all video games ever did, which was have a Land of the Dead? Like literally if a video game lasts long enough you just know there's gonna be a Land of the Dead level. It's like video games can't get away of riffing the old myths.

    Just think about it, all the awesome people are in the Land of the Dead now. It's like all the cool characters. Well some of them. I guess the show's Land of the Dead really has more cool characters vs the books. But the point is, if there was a Land of the Dead, that brings the killing to a whole new level. Maybe characters like *cough*Lady Stoneheart*cough* and Dondorrian are sort of on "loan" and parts of them are in the Land of the Dead. Maybe it's a deal with the Lord of Light. And all the Walkers are like, some sort of breach... maybe the dark Snow God is upset at the Light God and he... no wait that's a Christmas movie... no I'm just gonna keep going with this, maybe one god's reanimated the dead in Westeros but they're a different kind of dead compared to the Land of the Dead dead, and the real ending isn't going to be a showdown between dragons and ice zombies like we always assumed, but actually ice and I dunno, light zombies? Or maybe ghosts. I'm not sure what the real dead look like. They're probably ghosts.

    Yeah that would be cool GRRMartin. Put that on the list of fan ideas you won't do. But if you maybe do it, don't do it like ROTK.
     
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