Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community' started by -RebelScum-, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    1. I don't agree with the show dragging out the Ramsay reveal. I'm just saying the flaying actually did have a point.

    2. The Brotherhood without Banners struck me as self-deluded in the books-- their "cause" is noble, but they're ruthless killers helping to drag out the war and suffering like every other faction-- and they only realized that (or Thoros did) when Stoneheart took over.
    Last edited by Darth Guy, May 6, 2013
  2. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    The thing is in the books we see how they are serving and protecting the poor(both under Beric and LS) thus showing how their claims of nobility is not just words to the wind. While, here we only see them talk about it and then give Gendry away without cause thus negating any impact their words might have.
    Last edited by BootlegVader, May 6, 2013
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  3. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Personally I'm all for the conservation of characters that the show is doing. Combining Gendry with Edric works well for me. Whilst it's a nice little plot point for a book, I'm not sure it would work in a TV show. Making Melissandre's planned sacrifice a character someone the audience knows and likes is a sensible move on their part.

    As for how it reflects on the Brotherhood, it serves as a way of showing their amorality, which makes their turn from Robin Hood's to common outlaws when Lady Stoneheart arrives on the scene more believable.
    themetresgained likes this.
  4. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    That might be nice if there was a systematic effort for them to make the "good" guys in the story (Robb, Catelyn, Blackfish, BWB) all more of jerks. While, in contrast grey and black characters like Tyrion and Cersei are made into lighter characters and more of victims.

    Especially, seeing how Cersei and Tyrion turn into way more dark characters then the BWB and LS in the following books.
  5. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Not sure I get your point here. Are you saying they've made those characters into jerks or that they should to balance it out or something? Either way I disagree. I don't really see the relevance of those characters to the Brotherhood at all, really.

    And for your second point, a lot of Cersei's insanity is to do with losing Joffrey. Plus of course seeing her act like a complete moron from her own POV helps. Regarding Tyrion, I think he's a fairly accurate representation of his book character, at least up to now.
  6. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    What I am complaining about is that in the books the characters of Robb, Cat, Blackfish, and the BWB are all traditionally as noble, heroic, and good people. Yet, the show BWB sells Gendry out for gold, Blackfish is a complete jerk to Edmure, Robb is a spoiled brat, and Cat prays for the deaths of babies. All acts that make them much less noble or good.

    In contrast, Cersei is pretty much black her entire time in ASOIAF with her killing Robert's bastards, attempting to kill Tyrion, and so forth. Yet, here almost everything she does in the books besides kill Robert is handed over to Joffrey.

    Additionally, Tyrion is a much more grey and unlikable character in the books with him doing actions like slap Shae, arm the Vale's Mountain people just to get back at Lysa (despite the fact they will only terrorize the smallfolk), openly tells the court that Sansa's treatment depends on Jaime's treatment(all while she is still being regularly beaten), threaten to rape and beat Tommen, hand over the Antler men to Joffrey to be brutally murdered, murder and make soup out of Symon Silver Tongue, agree to forcibly marry Sansa against her will just because he wants her claim, and etc.

    Yet, none of that appears in the show at all. Instead, Tyrion comes off simply as pure hero without any real darkness besides that he fights for the wrong side.
  7. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Blackfish change is an improvement, Robb to me doesn't come across as a spoilt brat at all to me and Cat is now far more relatable and likable than in the books (though I must confess to skipping many of her chapters along with Bran's in ACOK).

    I'd forgotten most of what Tyrion had done to be honest. It's been years since I actually read the first three books. However, outside of arming the mountain tribes, slapping Shae, handing over the Antler men and Symon's fate, the rest can be put down to just playing the game. And even the worst part of the thing with Symon can be pinned on Bronn (if A Wiki of Ice and Fire is accurate). Threatening to rape and beat Tommen was an empty threat and marrying Sansa, though not a "good" act was hardly a bad one. If he'd consummated that marriage you'd have a point, but his behaviour towards her was pretty exemplary. Even that swearing in front of the court that Sansa's treatment is conditional upon Jaime's does as much to protect her as it does Jaime.
  8. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Ignoring the Cat issue as she is an extremely controversial character (for some crazy reason), I disagree with both the Blackfish and Robb.

    In the books, Blackfish actually comes off as carrying uncle to Edmure with him consoling him with how Hoster also missed with his arrows and how he has no right to pressure Edmure into marriage seeing how that is what caused his distance with his brother. Yet, here is seems he took a page from Randyll Tarly's playbook and is constantly bullying his nephew.

    On Robb, I find his Show version completely unlikable seeing how we have him just break an alliance just because he felt like it and now he is constantly whining about how Edmure needs to accept his previously rejected bargain as how they are losing the war (whose fault is that Robb?). Quite frankly, I just want either Cat to put him over her knee or Edmure to just kick him out of Riverrun.
  9. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Well I personally like the attitude Blackfish takes with Edmure. The man is a total moron.

    I honestly don't think that complaint about Robb stands. In the books, he breaks his marriage vow with the Frey's solely because he gets his dick wet from some minor noble maiden and marries her out of duty. In the show, he actually falls in love. That to me is a far more likable and honourable action. Of course it's difficult to compare the Robb/Jeyne relationship to the Robb/Talisa one as in the books we see none of their initial meeting and very little of their relationship.
  10. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    He is hardly a moron, seeing how he tactically defeated Tywin on the battlefield. The only problem being how Robb decided not to tell him his overall strategy thus making that victory pyrrhic.
    Point Given likes this.
  11. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2004
    star 6
    Edmure isn't a total moron. He gets a bad rap. I mean he's basically Robb's equal as a great lord but Robb doesn't see fit to share his plan with him? And he's supposed to let Tywin ravage his lands with no recourse? I don't think he would last long as a feudal overlord if he didn't appear to be taking steps to resolve the situation.
    Point Given likes this.
  12. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    It is annoying that so many fans seem to designate anyone who makes some mistake a complete moron, thus we have to repeatedly listen to how Ned, Catelyn, Robb, Sansa, Edmure, etc are supposedly complete morons despite all of them showing varying degrees of intelligence.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  13. wannasee Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2007
    star 4
    Edmure is not a moron; he's a schlemiel.
    Darth_Kiryan likes this.
  14. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    I thought last night's episode was the weakest of the season. It's still GoT, though, so it's pretty good as always.

    The part that interested me the most was Melisandre visiting the BwB, of course. On top of being arguably the biggest change to the books yet, the writers gave Mel a line towards the end of that segment, when she says to Arya that they shall meet again. That left me wondering if that's just something the TV writers have planned for the tv show, or if GRRM let them know that Mel and Arya will be meeting up at some point in either TWOW or ADOS. Or they could just be referring to Mel seeing in her fires who she thinks is Arya coming to Castle Black, but I don't think so.
  15. MistrX Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2006
    star 4
    I actually like Sansa, but she didn't come across all that well in the wedding scene. It's understandable, given her mindset at that point, but it still frustrates Tyrion. Of course, those impure thoughts of his don't reflect all that well on him, either...

    Yeah, but how major was Cat by this point? Her role in the book wasn't much different than her role in the show, observing and being ignored by Robb as they try to make amends with their unfortunate decisions.
    I don't necessarily agree with this. Yes, they are killers and that's part of what they do. But they weren't randomly attacking civilians. Stoneheart does to some extent strip down and emphasize the part of their mission that involved punishing the lords and soldiers committing what they see as atrocities. But I felt that Thoros had come to see that was all they were doing and that their goal under Beric, of helping the helpless, had been cast aside.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    The problem isn't idiocy; it's a younger generation that doesn't recognise the old-school concept of nobility when it sees it. Ned was noble and that was out of place for a cynical realm. He also assumed that everyone had the same inherent nobility he did (and I'm referred to it as deeds not blood) so he ascribed purer motives and levels of trustworthiness to them inappropriately.

    Robb learned everything from Ned. Catelyn tries to reconcile pragmatism with Northern stoicism and ends up without being any good at either. Sansa's terrified, alone, and without a wolf to anchor herself to.
    Jedi Merkurian likes this.
  17. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Quite frankly, seeing how Tyrion and the other Lannisters had just agreed to forcibly make her marry him against her will because of his/their own desire for Winterfell I think she treated him remarkably well. The fact that Tyrion was frustrated, only seems to highlight his own Lannister pride and selfishness of how he seemed unwilling to demonstrate any real empathy to understand her plight. Instead, he only went back to his own selfish self-pity act.
  18. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    I agree I don't think Ned, Cat, Edmure, Theon, Robb, or Sansa (the typical targets) are idiots. Only that they are either somewhat naive, have terrible luck, or have some personality flaw that helps attest to their bad decisions and miserable luck.

    Really, the only person that seems to be an overwhelming idiot is Viserys and post-ASOS Cersei, but they both have the crazy factor to help account for some of their bad decisions.
  19. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    Agreed 100%. Cersei is perhaps the stupidest person in the entire series.
  20. BootlegVader Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 3, 2004
    star 4
    Well, she still hasn't threatened a Khal's wife and child with a steel blade in specific violation to Dorthaki law in their most sacred city yet thus I think Viserys still has her beat.
    Last edited by BootlegVader, May 7, 2013
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  21. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    No, but she has beggared the realm for her own vanity, elected people utterly unsuitable to their roles out of her own paranoia, pinned her own crimes on Margaery in an attempt to screw the Tyrell's, alienated her entire family and lacked any foresight regarding allowing the Faith to re-arm. And that's just from AFFC, not even started on ADWD yet. Viserys was no doubt a total muppet, but his one truly stupid decision resulted in his death. Cersei continues to make stupid decision after stupid decision with no regard to their impact on the Seven Kingdoms. She likes to think herself her father's true heir but she is by far the furthest removed from legacy. She is a paranoid, spiteful, vindictive and willfully ignorant and I hope her ultimate fate is worth even just one-tenth of the pain and suffering she has inflicted on countless people in Westeros.
  22. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
  23. Miana Kenobi Costuming & Props Mod - Retired Admin

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2000
    star 8
    Cersei is clever; she's just not AS smart as she thinks he is.


    I'll definitely go with Viserys for the dunce cap.


    Cor - !!!!!!! Just wait until the Red Wedding... :p
    Last edited by Miana Kenobi, May 7, 2013
  24. Coruscant Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2004
    star 6
    They should put, like, a PTSD hotline at the end of the RW before the credits. :p
  25. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2005
    star 5
    She really isn't.