Amph A Song of Ice and Fire Discussion Thread

See, since you know a lot about the books-- hell, you read this thread-- I think it's highly unfair to "spoiler-free" TV viewers for you to post the biggest spoiler possible disguised as speculation. Yes, I know it's technically speculation on your part, but you obviously know more than a show viewer would.

I think GrandAdmiralJello will back me up here.

 

That's just depressing.

 

I wish they would stop dragging it out, thus allowing them to drop the constant scenes of Theon being tortured that are frankly unpleasant to watch. How about they just have Ramsey attempt to hunt down and kill Bran and Rickon if they want to show how terrible Ramsey is instead of just watching him cut off pieces of Theon.

Especially, seeing how the Theon pay off of him saving Jeyne(or whoever in the show) is so far off.

 

Um, seriously, Merk, what the hell?

 

Do you think GRRM will ever take the story to Starfall and involve the Daynes? I'd love to see more than just references to Arthur/Ashara by Selmy and the POV's. I know Gerald is involved as well as Edric but I wonder if there are more to come.

 

There is a theory that Ashara might actually be Septa Lemore, and thus might have been watching over Aegon along with JonCon.

 

I've seen a crackpot theory before that Rhaegar had three sons: Aegon, Jon, and Darkstar.

Ah yeah, I've also heard the Lemore theory.

 

Darkstar(I am of the night) is too old to be Rhaegar's son, unless Rhaegar was cheating on Elia even before they had any children.

 

So how does that make this theory less likely?

 

Because we have no evidence that Rhaegar and Elia where unhappy or unfaithful until he needed the Third Head of the Dragon.

 

I think you are significantly underestimating Rhaegar's depravity.

 

Wocky, what evidence do you have for your theory?

 

I'm not saying I espouse the theory. I don't even know who Darkstar is, am pretty confident that Aegon is a fake, and would prefer if Jon were no one other than Ned Stark's bastard. I'm just saying, we've seen Rhaegar be inhumane enough that we shouldn't rebut any theory solely on the basis that we think he might be "too nice" to do something like that.

 

Almost everyone besides Robert(for obvious reasons) speaks favorable and highly of Rhaegar, so what is inhumane about the character.

 

He's not a Tyrell.

 

Yes, another positive for Rhaegar. Through, seriously besides Arya does Wocky dislike every character that is not a Tyrell? As I have even seen him badmouth Ned Stark and not just in the sense of teasing him for his "stupidity" but his character traits.

Seriously, who hates on the Ned?

 

That's not it at all, guys. I'm actually indifferent to most people. There are only a select few that I dislike, for the following (summary) reasons:

1. Rhaegar- Completely inexcusable conduct towards his wife. He let his "friends" criticize Elia unchecked, to the point that the Astapori probably valued the Unsullied more as human beings than he did Elia as his wife. The moment she fell ill he abandoned her to suffer alone while he went out and played pretend games about the Age of Heroes. Finally, in his most appalling display of hatred, he chose to plunge the land into civil war and destroy his whole kingdom rather than be slightly more discreet about the lovers he chose over her. It was selfish, terrible, and wrong.

2. Ned Stark- Not as bad as the others on this list, but a huge hypocrite. At the end of the Rebellion, he had Robert's ear. Besides being one of the most important war leaders, he was one of the new king's closest friends and advisers. Rather than trying to help or confront his friend and as the kingdom wasted away to nothing and debt piled up, he laughed it off as charming that his old buddy was such a drunken carouser. He never for a second acknowledges how much of an enabler he was. He's like a guy that gives a speech against drunk driving then presses the car key's into his buddy hand as reward for winning a shot drinking contest. I don't care for it.

3. Melisandre- She's a terrible demonic witch and is fairly depraved. She thinks nothing of betraying or seducing people. Worst, she enthralled and mislead Stannis, who was otherwise a pretty decent guy, and one I might've liked. As it is, I distrust all people associated with Rh'llor, especially her as his chief representative in Westeros.

 

Uh, he went back to the North after the Rebellion. Jon Arryn was the Hand of the King, and would be the "enabler"-- though it really depended on whether Robert actually listened to him. Robert wasn't listening when Ned objected to spending so many on the tournament.

 

What?

Where do you get the understanding that he dehumanized his wife because one of his "friends" (not even his closest) disliked her and criticized her 15 years after the event?

Also, what Darth Guy said regarding the Ned.

 

I know he did. But it was neglectful, in the first place, to march back home triumphantly and be delightfully oblivious to the rest of the realm. He played a key role in the rebellion that destroyed the social order. He ought to take some responsibility in helping to rebuild it. And while I don't expect him to win every fight, I do expect him to try. He successfully warned Robert away from participating in the tourney when others couldn't. Also, with the same long odds of success, he was willing to go the mat on the assassination issue, when he thought it affected his personal honor, but couldn't be bothered to raise more than a passing objection to the tourney and a few grousing lines of internal monologue.

Where do you think Griff got those sorts of opinions from? I don't know anyone who spews such virulent hatred for a person that's important to one of their friends. You don't have to love every couple equally, but if someone is really important to you, there's usually some basic level of respect for their spouse, or else there's a rupture in your friendship. Yet the more Griff cackled at Elia's suffering, the more it seems like Rhaegar liked to let the guy hang around.

 

Well that's because JonCon was jealous.

 

Where do you get that from seeing how JonCon was exiled while Rhaegar and Lyanna were still together?

 

Jon thinks Elia was unworthy of Rhaegar because he believes the only person worthy of Rhaegar is Jon Connington.

 

Robert hardly destroyed the Social Order of Westeros, he basically spent to much money but other then their society was generally peaceful and content. Moreover, it is hardly like Ned was being kept up with all Robert's expenses while he was busy ruling his own territory so it is not like he knew who Robert turned into. Instead, he probably believed that Jon Arryn could control and handle any of Robert's more unfavorable traits.