Amph A Song of Ice and Fire: Spoilers Allowed Discussion Thread (now with ADWD spoilers)

Discussion in 'Community' started by MarcusP2, Jun 28, 2011.

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  1. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Everybody keeps saying this. The kid's grown up now--are you telling me you can't notice family resemblance in an adult?
  2. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    [First off, what is this "going stag" and "going rose" business? What does any of that even mean?

    And what else was there with them? Nothing at all. Which argues pretty strongly for what I said. The only preparations he seemed to be making were those involving himself, and the only thing he seemed to be stockpiling was babies from an assortment of noble women.

    Yes, it very well might have. But so what? This is a kingdom that has already tolerated Baelor's religious fervor, Aerys's fascination with wildfire, and Aegon V's ill-fated attempts to hatch dragon eggs. The mental instability of the Targaryen's was so widely acknowledged as to be a common saying. But so long as these eccentricities did not disrupt the realm, and things continued to run smoothly, they were tolerated. Why wouldn't the same be true here?

    I'll concede you make a very good point about the Valeyrian steel. That probably wouldn't work, so I'd agree that's impractical. But what about everything else? He could've armed every members of the Night's Watch with an obsidian dagger for less than the cost of a single tourney. Seeing as the crows were only a few hundred strong, he probably could've doubled their size over the course of 5 years or so without even much in the way of notable policy shifts about how prisoners were handled. And if he chose to give a small stipend to them out of an already overflowing treasury rather than spend it on luxuries, who honestly would have cared? I don't see how you can say they'd stir up enough opposition to either A)prevent him from doing these things or B)destabilizing his reign.

    I don't think it's credible to say he "couldn't" do those things. The only thing standing in his way was his reputation. But ultimately, I find that pretty damning. He couldn't endure a few years of people snickering at him? Was the public vision of him as philosopher king so precious? If he were really a good leader, he would be able to value doing the right thing over his own personal popularity. It seems he couldn't.

    Well, two things. First, I think that's unfair to say, given that we're also working off of Jello's assumption that the whole thing with Lyanna had some noble purpose behind it. We don't really "know" that to be the case either.

    Secondly, though, I think we do have good evidence. Something likely would have emerged by now. If he was stockpiling something at the Tower of Joy, Ned would've found out. And if it had any connection to the others, don't you think it would've came to Ned's mind when he started getting reports about strange things happening beyond the Wall? If he was sending out written appeals, what Maester was managing his ravens? If he'd tried personal diplomacy, why does no one recall meeting with him about these topics? If he'd made any outward efforts at all, how would they have escaped Varys's notice? Yet, just like Ned, he seems completely nonplussed. There's very little Rhaegar could have done on his own. And if he'd shared with anyone that he was trying to make preparations against the others, there have already been dozens of opportunities in the books where this logically would've come up. The fact that it hasn't is a pretty reasonable basis for assuming that he never made any serious attempt at all.



  3. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

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    I think Connington would accept anyone with a passing resemblance...there are probably Targaryen/Velaryon bastards floating about Essos after all.
  4. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Are you telling me that you don't know what the house symbols are by now?

    Baratheon = stag
    Tyrell = rose

    Or perhaps you don't know what the term "going stag" means in colloquial English? http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=going%20stag
  5. Mustafar_66 Force Ghost

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    About 3/4's of the way through A Clash of Kings and some storyline's are really great and others are dull as dishwater. The most boring being Bran and Caetlyn, though Jon's has gotten progressively worse since meeting up with Caster. I'm really reading for Arya and Tyrion.

    Oh, and I hate Theon with a passion.
  6. Mar17swgirl Chosen One

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  7. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    I know this post is 5 months old, but I'll respond anyway because I just finished DWD.


    That's exactly what I think "Aegon" is. There was a mention of Targaryen-looking bastards running around Essos in FFC, I think, and there are rarely throwaway lines about such things. Of course, no one but Varys and maybe the cheesemonger would know the truth.
  8. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Connington was basically almost in love with Rhaegar. I think he knew him a little better than, say, Cersei.
  9. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    So? That doesn't make him more able to sniff out a fraud. Children don't necessarily look like one parent or the other, and the silver hair and purple eyes would be enough to fool people. If anything, Connington's love for Rhaegar and his desire to return home would make him easier to manipulate.
  10. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    I think the issue in some sense hinges on how long the two were together. Do we have any indications?
  11. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    Weren't they basically childhood friends?
  12. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    I meant Conningtion and the alleged pretender, not Connington and the vile egoist killed by Robert.

    But yes, as I understand it, you are correct on that point.
  13. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    Well, Connington was already in exile by the time Tywin sacked King's Landing. He couldn't have seen Varys replace the baby or anything. I'm sure Aegon, legit or not, was raised from a baby believing that he is Rhaegar's son. The less people who know the secret, the better.
  14. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    Well, I was more thinking about how Connington might come to accept the boy. For the reasons you outlined, the issues of physical appearance were always going to be somewhat vague. I would suspect he took just as strong evidence from the boy's behavior. There, the nature/nurture debate is one we still find bedeviling. So the longer he was with Connington, the more chance he had to consciously and subconsciously pick up on the habits and attitudes of the man that Connington admired. Particularly if he was unaware of having done this, Connington might then take that same development as evidence that the apple hadn't fallen far from the tree.
  15. Coruscant Force Ghost

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  16. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    So Rhaegar's pretty awesome.
  17. Coruscant Force Ghost

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  18. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

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    I could murder him every day, and still not offer even the smallest fraction of the punishment he deserves.
  19. GrandAdmiralJello Community and Lit moderator person

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    I expect such calumnies from wocky, but from you? For shame.

    Thanks Robert.
    Last edited by GrandAdmiralJello, Sep 3, 2012
  20. Handmaiden Yané Manager Emeritus

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    I'm so conflicted about Rhaegar. Mainly because I am not fond of conspiracy theories...and so I'm predisposed to not buy into any of the Rhaegar/Lyanna/Jon Snow theories.
    Last edited by Handmaiden_Yane, Sep 3, 2012
  21. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Rhaegar was one of the greatest men to ever live in Westeros. Too bad Robert hated him.
  22. RC-1991 Force Ghost

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    I enjoy the Grand Northern Conspiracy theory myself.
  23. dante144 Force Ghost

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    star 1
  24. MistrX Force Ghost

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    Just finished A Feast for Crows and all I have to say is...
    Show Spoiler
    Pate?! Pate?!?!?! What?!? Wait a second... killed by a changeling.
    Hmmm...
    JackG likes this.
  25. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    But there are a ton of people named Pate in the series too. Tommen's whipping boy was named Pate, and in ASOS, Arya hides from the BWB in the cornfield of a farmer named Pate. Just to name a few. So while we don't have a definite answer as to this Pate's identity, it's not necessarily anything suspicious.
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