Amph A Song of Ice and Fire: Spoilers Allowed Discussion Thread (now with ADWD spoilers)

Ummm....so will the show possibly outrun the books? What will happen then? It surely wouldn't be as complete as the books would be....but we'd still generally know the ending.

 

The show will almost certainly outrun the books.

 

Young Griff?

 

Tommen.

 

Hizdahr?
Cleon?

 

What about Stannis? Mance?

 

Or Euron.

 

Dolorous Edd?

 

And what about Daenerys? Or is Rhaegar really alive?

 

Robert's decapitated head on the Mountain's body?

 

Hodor?

 

My personal favourite is Robbwind Greystark.

 

He probably means Howland Reed.

Okay so I finished Dance with Dragons yesterday, so here are my thoughts.

Before I get into them let me just say, I did like it. This is gonna seem like a lot of negatives, but I did overall enjoy it.

To me, the book was a bit slow. It took a lot of time for very little to actually happen. Tyrions' chapters, which I usually adore, were plodding and all seemed very similar. Apart from him meeting Young Griff and Jorah Mormont his plot struck me as rather a waste of pages. He just went from one ship to the next just...traveling. Not fun after the first couple of chapters.

Though I did enjoy Dany's chapters, they all seemed rather sameish as well. I can kind of understand why she'd want to stay in Meereen for a little, but she didn't seem to care about getting her kingdom back in Westeros in this book. And the end had me kind of confused as well. So she did all that in Meereen just to have, what exactly? Back to the end of GoT, minus two dragons with the one she has fully grown? Her Unsullied army is still in Meereen, and the people she spent all that time protecting are now screwed.

I did like what we saw of Jon Snow. Though it was mostly Lord Commandering duties, it was nice to see him be a responsible person who is preparing to fight the Others with all he has. His arc at least is making sense. Loved his death scene. I can totally picture that in the series. Although Martin didn't exactly put the most confidence in this being a for sure death, as there's not only the fact that Jon's a skinchanger, also that he's very likely Azhor Ahai reborn, and that Melisandre could very likely bring him back. Too much going on there to just ignore.

LOVED Cersei's walk of shame. Kings Landing plots are becoming my favorite, especially after Feast. Loved Young Griff and John Connington, liked Ser Robert Strong, LOVED Reek's plot throughout, really looking forward to Stannis vs. Bolton (unless that letter was truthful, which I fear). Loved Arya's developments, Bran is awesome and I wish we got more of his plot than Tyrions....add Davos to that as well. I feel like there could have been more to his, but nope, he just stopped writing Davos at one point.

Didn't care much for Brienne's sudden "Hey Jaime, follow me!". Absolutely no explanation as to what happened with Lady Stoneheart, and that chapter just seemed to serve to remind us that that plot was still viable.

Cannot tell you how much I loved the Epilogue. As much as I disliked the last Dany chapter, that epilogue made up for the like, entire book. Varys is one of my faves as well as Littlefinger, and it was great to see him again, even if he killed Pycelle and Kevan. Oh well. Worth it.

Overall, I did enjoy this book. Surprisingly, not as much as Feast, but I still enjoyed it.

My rundown of favorite books

Storm of Swords
Game of Thrones
Feast for Crows
Dance with Dragons
Clash of Kings

But I do love Clash, just don't remember all that much of it.

 

Don't really see how Rhaegar is a soulless monster. I mean, sure he ran off with Lyanna when Elia was still alive (albeit sickly)but compared to say...everyone else in the series...Rhaegar seems like a pretty good guy.

And Connington totally has the hots for him.

 

Just downloaded aDwD last night onto my Nook.

However, I was disappointed to see how many bad reviews this book has already gained. Seems like it's averaging 3/5 stars (based on Amazon.com's reviews and B&N's).

Plus, it kind of sucks that I remember almost nothing from Storm of Swords and Feast for Crows.

I might need a refresher

 

It's hard to know what to think about Rhaegar. Was he a 'soulless monster'? I doubt it. But he did run off with the daughter of a noble house for no good reason (that anybody knew about), disappeared for months and totally ignored the consequences, then died. Most of the opinions we get are from people that obviously were infatuated with him (Cersei and Griff) though Barristan seemed to like him too.

I doubt he was the saint nostalgia has made him (particularly with the meltdown the realm is currently experiencing) but he was probably more good than bad.

 

I find his actions especially incredible in light of Dance. As Lady Whent reveals to Theon, the Starks were already interested in playing politics and looking for marriages that would elevate their stature in the world. Polygamy was also a known practice among the Targaryens. Had he really desired Lyanna that much, I find it hard to believe he couldn't have scuttled the impending marriage to the Baratheons and arranged an alternate one for himself. He didn't even try. Instead, he pursued what was absolutely the most inflammatory path possible. This sort of impulsiveness and disregard for political nuance is less than we would expect from even Robert in his most rip-roaring drunken state.

People usually praise him because he was literate, or because he was such a great warrior. Those are certainly nice qualities to have in an individual. But it turns a blind eye to a fact that the novels make repeatedly: those things alone, don't necessarily make a good ruler. Gregor Clegane, too, was a great warrior. Petyr Baelish, Tywin Lannister, and Roose Bolton are fairly sharp but cruel men. Rhaegar's primary forays into the public sphere were deeply selfish acts that hurt those around him, ruined the kingdom, and mortally wounded his family's dynasty. I'd rather not put someone like that in charge of anything at all.

 

I feel like you completely loathe Rhaegar, and I don't honestly see a big reason for it. The realm would've fallen into war irregardless of whether Rhaegar kidnapped/ran away with Lyanna. It's just the way things go.

To me, he's a deeply intellectual man who has deep ties to his house and is saddled with responsibilities he did not want or ask for. When he had a chance to try for real happiness and true love, he took it, which ultimately led to his downfall.

Selfish? Yes. But I think his is a kind of noble selfishness that no person in Westeros has.

 

IRREGARDLESS IS NOT A WORD.

Sorry but that really annoys me.

Real happiness and true love? Based on what? Who says he loved Lyanna? I tend to think he was just trying to fulfill the PWWP prophecy.

 

Holy crap. You learn something new everyday. Man. I'm not using that word anymore.

Well Maester Aemon says that he thought Aegon was the PWWP, erroneously. So if he thought his son was already the PWWP, and Elia was sick and dying....why else would he kidnap/run away with Lyanna?

 

Then my work is done.

Anyway:
Because
a) 'The Dragon has 3 heads'
b) He had 2 kids
c) Elia couldn't have any more
d) Song of Ice (Stark) and Fire (Targaryen)