A song of Ice and Fire

I personally have a great time arguing about books and such. And I think this series offers more oppurtunity than most series while still allowing a person new to the series to catch up with only 3 books. Of course something like this will be ripe with spoilers. So read no farther if that kind of things bothers you.

Alakin, I love you! Thanks for starting this.

Up until I was introduced to George R.R. Martin's works, I had thought it very unfortunate that all of my favourite authors had a tragic flaw to their writing: Mercedes Lackey kills her characters with impunity, and there's that whole "intelligent horse" thing; Robin Hobb has her dragon fixation; Katherine Kurtz isn't prolific enough; and Jack Whyte still hasn't described Arthur's reign. Even Diana Gabaldon can't keep up with my appetite, and so I was wandering around in search of something really meaty to sink my teeth into.

Martin's Ice and Fire series is that. I haven't finished the third book yet, but I am ravenous for more, and I know when I am done, I will be sated. The man's work is a feast of words.

I can't decide which of Eddard's kids is my favourite. Bran is fascinating; the youngest girl is wonderful and resourceful(been so long since I had book three in my hands, I can't recall her name, or the eldest's), and Jon Snow... his perspective is a rivetting read.

The huge sprawling scope of the story is enough to keep me pondering and pontificating, which is always a good thing. The plot twists and the multitude of distinct characters are likewise wonderful. The drawing together of two destinies across the wide width of this world is storytelling at its grandest. I like complex plots.

For those of us with the need to read, and to be fully engaged in the experience, so we end up dreaming the characters, these books come highly recommended.

Which part grabbed you the most so far, Alakin? (Tell me unless it's from the last two-thirds of book three... which reminds me... do you have a copy I can borrow? )

Chat soon!

*Derisa*

I find both Bran and Jon's character to be very grabbing. My favourite character is probably Daenarys however. It is fairly rare to get a stong female character who still comes across as female. Well..at least for me as a male reader, for what that is worth.

Arya (the youngest Stark daughter) is up there as well. All the Stark children are wonderful characters, except Robb. I feel he is just too much like his father. Although that does at the same time give depth to his character. Slightly hypocritical I know but my opinions make perfect sense to me.

I believe I offered to lend you Storm of Swords at some point in the past. I will track down my copy and you will have by the character roll up at the latest. I recently got another friend into the series and he has finished it but still has the books.

And in answer to your other question...all of the third book was truly amazing. So in making sure I don't spoil it for you, I won't say anything more specific than that.

Arya! That's her bloody name.

Believe it or not, I agree with you about Robb Stark (what a *great* last name for the Kings of the North!)... he is too much like his father, and that detracts rather than adds to his character.

Daenerys is a wonderful character. Her alliance with the nomadic people was ery well done, and I almost miss her king, brutal and bloody as he was. She's a very cool character, and the slow growth of her destiny's call is intriguing.

You care about her as a person, and know that eventually she's going to meet up with the others you care about and there'll be a terrible clash. You know who to root for, in the end, but that doesn't stop a small part of you from wanting Daenerys to have the final victory.

How do you find the splitting of the perspectives, Alakin? Does it throw you as a reader, or does it help you grasp the story better?

And what do you think of the dwarf? I confess, in book two he was my favourite not-so-nuetral character.

Chat soon,

*Derisa*

I find that the series actually needs the split perspective to be really comprehended. There is no real set of good guys in the novels, especially as you get further in. Without the spilt perspective, you would start to favor one family and lose so much plot somewhere else.

Tyrion is great. The little lion is one of favourites too, right behind Daenarys. While it is all too obvious he has less than warm feelings for most of his family, he still remains firmly loyal to their ideals. Great contract and a highly dynamic character.

Which character death surpised you the most? (Well of the ones you know about at least? )

Well, I saw and celebrated the death of Daenerys' brother, but quite frankly it shocked the hell out of me when Eddard died. That was just so wrong, compared to all other fantasy fiction, and it really hit home: no one is safe in this author's hands. I *love* that! That's what real life is like. Eddard believed strongly in his ideals, and, just like real life, his faith did not save his life. Dead brill!

I was likewise surprised by Bran's survival, and his continued developement after that point as a chracter. He's pivotal to the family and the story, and I love his portrayal: he seems like a very real little boy. I have kind of a thing for crippled characters, actually: working on plotting a fic about a crippled Jedi, and my favourite Kurtz character is the club-footed Javan Haldane. (So much so that Javan almost ended up being Kyriel's name.)

I like the fact that while greed motivates some of the antagonist characters, they aren't dripping with evil. In fact, they're very solidly real people. Love and hope and need motivate them as well.

Have you read any of the series he editted: the Wildcard novels? There are comparisons to be drawn, believe it or not.


*Derisa*

I have never managed to find any of those books. I have always been curious about the other work he has done.

I am admittedly a little crippled by not being able to discuss the third book. So much great stuff and it is all still so fresh in my mind. I really have to get you my copy.

Have either of you read Gene Wolf's Books of the New Sun series?

Gesh

I haven't heard of that particular author. There is so much quality fantasy work out there that never gets the appreciation it deserves.

I just finished reading the four book Gene Wolfe series "Book of the new sun" and it's part fantasy, part post apocoliptic. The main character is a member of the guild of "seekers of light and penitance", in other words torturers for the ruler. He also has a photographic memory and is writing the story as a sort of memoir. Written in the 80's with several sequals although most guide books say the first, "Urth of the new sun", is the only good one. The books in the series were nominated for and won one Nebula award. I give it a Gesh thumbs up!

Gesh

Sounds very cool. It seems to be a common theme in fantasy to have torturer's guilds named after light or sun and such things. An odd to say the least association. Inquisition and all that I suppose.

So you started on Storm of Swords yet Derisa? *hint hint*

Gesh, I read the New Sun series ages ago. SOme of the scenes still resonate clearly in my memory: I like the weight of Gene Wolfe's work, and the slowly-revealed story. Yum!

No, Alakin, I've not gotten started yet. I'm wading through Rogue Planet at present, and distracting myself with a treatise criticising mandatory public education, called "Cumpulsory Mis-Education..." heavy stuff but good, and strangely it tied directly into a couple of online 'Star Wars as Mythos' reviews I have read of late. Neat stuff.


Don't worry, I rad fast... I'll get on it this weekend, likely.

*Derisa*

Good stuff...I need someone else to discuss this series with. And the new book should be finished soonish. I can hardly wait.

Anyone from here thinking of going to WorldCon this year?

Its in Toronto, and the GoH is George RR Martin himself...

Well, that sounds very cool, a trip to toronto is either very long or very expensive or even some combination there of. I have only been to one actual convention and it was pretty small.

When is WorldCon? (posting a link here would be hot!) I am considering a trip back east this summer with the kids (yikes!) and may be able to finagle something. Then again just getting to Ontario is sure to cost me, so the door fees at a big Con may be way too much to ask my budget. Still, more info can't hurt, right?

Back to the topic (I seem to be doing a lot of that lately): OMG!!! Sansa married to Tyrion!!! And Jaime Lannister had his hand lopped off... and, and, and!!!

Only a third of the way through the book and I am really enjoying this! Thanks so much Alakin!!! I'll let you know the moment I am done, so we can finish talking about it!

*Derisa*

It only gets better from there. The very tentative release date for Feast for Crows is this september. The paperback copy of Storm of Swords has two preview chapters including one with a new point of view. I am almost considering buying it just for that.

Feast of Crows is a *good* title!

Okay okay, I'm finished the book. Now we can finish the discussion. DON'T READ ANY FURTHER IF YOU DON'T WANT TO BE SPOILED FOR THIS BOOK!!!











OMG!!!

Robb's dead! Catelyn's dead! Edmure is in Frey's evil grip! And all by a horrible betrayal. It's true, no one is safe in Martin's hands.

Arya's been forced to wear a dress: several times. A false Arya is on her way north to be married off, Sansa's fled her odd marriage to the Giant of Lannister (poor Tyrion) and is now in the hands of Littlefinger, who has murdered her aunt: interesting twist.

Bran and the Reeds continue in their quest, assisted by the poor fat Samwell Tarly (what an homage to Tolkien *that* name is!), even as Stannis comes to the rescue of the Wall.

I'm sort of coming to *like* the red priestess, and I simply adore Tom o'Sevens and the rest of the Lightning Lord's motley bunch. And Daenerys... breathtaking as usual. I adored her for her purchase of the Unsullied, and her decision to stay and rule in the City. And Jaime Lannister... over the course of the book, he turns a new leaf. I almost (almost) like him, and I certainly understand him way better than I wanted to.

And best of all, Jon Snow is the Lord Commander of the Black Brothers.

Wow!

Themes: is it just me or was there a *lot* of sex in this book? Everyone was doin' it... The book took on darker tones as things progressed, which the tragedian in me adores...

What a terrific read!

Thanks, Alakin, for loaning the book to me. You've made my year!

*Derisa*

Now you have me wondering about that sex thing, I know that Jon was busy for a lot of the book, but that really to me represented him deciding whether to follow the path of his father or to make his own way in the world. I truly believe the only true Stark son is Jon Snow, the others didn't have enough winter in them to truly forge them. Bran is coming into his own though. But he has a bunch of help from unlikely sources.

You forgot to mention what was to me one of the most astonishing and yet satisfying events of the book, Tyrion killing his father. Tyrion came into his own even more this book, both confronting his past and accepting his future.

Jaime was indeed a much deeper character than first expected. The loss of his hand has forced him to look at the world as more than war and Cersei. The way he ineracts with the "wench" are some of the most amusing scenes in the book.

Daenarys is as always, a resoureful and somewhat tragic character. The last of a true line of conqueror's, she is doomed by betrayal and at such a young age, a widow and haunted by things that would have killed any of the many to sit the Iron Throne since the fall of the dragons. And besides all that, she has dragons, can't go wrong there.

But I think the character whose future most interests me is Arya. One of only three Starks to still have their wolf, her path leaves the most to the imagination. In a totally wild bit of speculation, I think it would be a wonderful twist if after ending up in the Free Kingdoms, she enters the service of Daenarys. I like plot twists.

Sansa is one of those characters that I want to like but can't quite get over past mistakes. Her unwilliness to let go of her fairy tales is an endearing quality but one that will eventually lead to her demise I am sure. Her soon to come marriage to Littlefinger should open some possibilities with the character.

I am going to stop rambling and give other fans some time to respond as well. Hope to get some discussion going soon.

I truly believe the only true Stark son is Jon Snow, the others didn't have enough winter in them to truly forge them.

Well put, Alakin! I agree, but I confess to wanting to know the details of his conception, other than vague hints.

You forgot to mention what was to me one of the most astonishing and yet satisfying events of the book, Tyrion killing his father.

I guess I felt it was inevitable, especially once he deposed Tyrion as Hand. It had to happen eventually.

Tyrion came into his own even more this book, both confronting his past and accepting his future.

That he did, and yet I always found him a curious character: the only good Lannister is one so twisted in body no one would ever believe his motives to be as pure as they are.

Jaime was indeed a much deeper character than first expected.

Yes, and wasn't that a relief from the unrepentantly evil caricature he could have been? I'm curious that you haven't said much about the incest... Cersei uses sex as a weapon, a lever against others to get what she wants, and even though he's aware of her manipulations, Jaime still longs for her. This is not a popular theme in modern specfic, and I admire Martin for his unabashed look at the phenomenon.

Daenarys is as always, a resoureful and somewhat tragic character. The last of a true line of conqueror's, she is doomed by betrayal
and at such a young age, a widow and haunted by things that would have killed any of the many to sit the Iron Throne since the fall
of the dragons. And besides all that, she has dragons, can't go wrong there.

I was taken aback by her decision to stay and rule, since all the action to date has pointed towards her coming into conflict with the war overseas. Or maybe she's the one who picks up the pieces at the end... no Kings left to choose from/suffer under, so the Dragon Queen is welcomed home to roost with open arms...?

But I think the character whose future most interests me is Arya.... I think it would be a wonderful twist if after ending up in the Free
Kingdoms, she enters the service of Daenarys.

Wow! Great speculation, Alakin, and a possibility, I think. It would fit. Arya should become an assassin, like the guy who gave her that coin... She and Daenerys have points of similarity about them, for sure.

Sansa is one of those characters that I want to like but can't quite get over past mistakes. Her unwilliness to let go of her fairy tales is an endearing quality but one that will eventually lead to her demise I am sure. Her soon to come marriage to Littlefinger should open some possibilities with the character.

I have never sympathised with Sansa's character, right from the get-go. Tyrion could have made her a good husband, if she'd been willing to take off the blinders. She seems to me to be a broodmare. I hope to every sacred thing she isn't the sole Stark survivor. That would chew.

So, don't any of the other visitors to our forum read this stuff, or what? Well, I'm cool with having a thread just for we few, we happy few, we band of readers...

*Derisa*

Well, I cheated a litle and took a quick peak at the preview chapters and the new POV (slight spoiler so stop reading now if you are against that) is none other than the third Lannister sibling, Cersei. I am really looking forward to getting inside her head. The total success of the Jaimes POV gives me high hopes for Cersei.

Amazon.ca has no release date set yet but I did find out the new Terry Goodkind book is due next month. "The Naked Empire" is set for July 21st. I actually thought that after the last one, the series was sort of over. I am very glad I was mistaken. Anyone else read the Sword of Truth series?

It seems that most of what there is to say about the books has been said; however there are a few opinions about some of the characters that I guess I should bring out to the public air.

The first is Arya.....what I really want to happen is for that coin that buddy (can't remember his name) gave to her to be a sort of "entrance fee" into the Faceless Men, that most elite group of assasins that has been mentioned several times throughout the series and each time with fear. It would be kind of neat to see young Arya become a cold blooded killer....And considering her last scene with The Hound (can't remeber his name either) she's well on her way.

The second is Melisandre.......While she struck me as a power grasping manipulative $^(@# when she first appeard, some of her actions in the last book show that he is not entirely selfish. I'm curious to see how her prophicies pan out and for the true champion of her God to be revealed (if ever). Wouldn't it be neat if her god was part of the Old Gods and it turned out that little Brand was the champion.......hmm just thought of that now interesting idea.

Those are the only characters that I have anyhting new to say about, although I am curious what is going to happen to Robb's mother...whether or not she is actually alive and not some sort of vengance revnant.

well tah tah for now I'll keep in touch

Arya killing the hound struck me more as a hate thing over a cold blooded one. Arya is too passionate to be a proper assassin in my ever so humble opinion.

Melisandre has proven her devotion to her cause several times over. She never struck me as power hungry, just fanatical. I think Jon being made the new head of the Night's Watch will put her back a few steps though.

Caitlyn should be an interesting character in the next book. Undead always are though.

Well...crappy news all around I am afraid. The Feast of Crows seems to have been delayed until Fall 2004! I am pretty choked about this. Will still read the book when it finally hits the shelves...but I don't have to like it. (Although I probably will, just let me be indignant for a while here )