A theological bombshell, sex in heaven?

Whoo! Sex and religion! Do I get a brownie point for poking two atom bombs with one stick?

Given as how there are numerous threads on religion AND sex here, one more shouldn't cause the universe to implode I think. Bear in mind, there are certain assumptions you'll have to make here. But seeing as how we're all reasonable, logical humans, that should be a problem.

Most important, no blasters. :\

The question is in reguards to a rather infamous misinterpretation in my mind of a scripture in Matthew. I'm rather glad, because I even managed to beat Lewis on this one I think. It is important to note what the bible says, and also what the Bible does not say. I'm not a Mormon, Jehovah's Witnes, Christian scientist or anything like that. I'm simply going by what the Bible says. This is a book we'll be studying forever, and there's obviously stuff we haven't figured out yet.

Fellow gentiles, hold your shotguns and pitchforks. I'm going to be talking about sex.

I hold traditional Christian values about sex. No sex before marriage, no adultary, no homosexuality, no beastiality. Clear everyone? Good.

Matthew 15:6 And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Most Christians agree that scripture must be interpreted by other scripture. One cannot blindly cling to one scripture and claim the truth stated in it supercedes all other truths.

Here follows, what I believe, to be one of the most misunderstood scriptures in the Bible.

Matthew 22:29-30

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new."


All things... ALL things... very interesting

Why do people assume that this will not apply to sex as well? "Ah, but there won't be any babies born in heaven! ... will there?"

"And God said: It is not good for man to be alone [I will make him a helper opposite him]."

Are we to assume this will magically "stop" in heaven?

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply."

Same as above. Are we to assume that physical relationships will disapear like smoke? I'm not talking about some goofy, metaphysical sexual junk here folks, I'm talking about the old fashion version.

When God puts a spiritual law into effect, it is NEVER rescinded unless explicitly stated, i.e. Jesus came to fufil the LAW of sin and death. I make this analogy, claiming there won't be sex in heaven because it is something found on the earth, is equally as silly as saying that LIGHT won't exist in heaven because it can be found on the earth. The scripture did say *all things* did it not? He never came to abolish gender and, frankly, sex. Adam and Eve would have gotten around to making babies sooner or later folks. Since heaven will essentially be an even MORE glorious return to a world without sin, why do we make the bold, and unclaimed assumption that sexual relations between men and women will not be made whole again as well?

"In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved."

Every last human being born into this world is here because God knew they would have the ability to survive and make a choice. Some make good choices, some bad, but mercy, grace and forgiveness is *always* there. This statement also implies there are OTHER humans who were 'not' predestined to be born into this world.

Bombshell #1: Mankind was never meant to have "marriage".

Adam and Eve, the first two pure, incorrupted human be

 

But to procreate, don't women need to ovulate which means they have periods, which is a punishment according to the bible for disobeying god? If all is made new, then women's period will be eradicated.

No periods, no babies. No babies, no need for sex.

 

No periods, no babies. No babies, no need for sex

If you think sex is to make babies, you have totally missed the point of it.

/Z

 

No periods, no babies. No babies, no need for sex

Sex goes beyond simple reproduction. sex can help make love stronger, can make a couple feel more together and lets not forget its fun. Think of the part in bicenntential amn where robin williams is talking about the emotional side of sex with the robot builder.

I am not religous and dont totaly buy the heaven/hell myth but I think if there was heaven sex would be there.

 

I was really refering to the procreation side of the argument.

 

Hmm . . . Paul's description of there ultimately being no Gentile or Jew, woman or man, slave or free among people in their pure spiritual state comes to mind. I'm not sure they have gender in heaven . . . if not, it would be hard to have sex.

 

Milton has a wonderful image of angelic sex in Paradise Lost. The matter of which angels are made is less crude, more refined, than that of ordinary humans (though for Milton humans would have ascended to the same state without the Fall), and when two angels have sex, they pretty much flow into each other, their bodies co-occupying a single space. I don't tend to envision a physical heaven (or any physical existence after death), but if I did, my image would have to be something like that.

-Paul

 

"Sex and Religion" is a great CD by Steve Vai: Sex & Religion (Relativity Records 7/27/93).

Check it out.

 

I'm going to throw something else in here...will people even spend eternity in heaven?

In revelation it talks about the new heaven and the new earth, and when people were created, before sin and such, they were on earth, and there was sex...at least, i would assume there was. In any case, had Adam and Eve not sinned, I'm sure they would have figured it out.

so if earth b efore sin would have had sex, and we're going to live on a sin-free earth later, then why wouldn't there be sex?

 

"Milton has a wonderful image of angelic sex in Paradise Lost. The matter of which angels are made is less crude, more refined, than that of ordinary humans (though for Milton humans would have ascended to the same state without the Fall), and when two angels have sex, they pretty much flow into each other, their bodies co-occupying a single space."

That's certainly interesting. Ultimately though, mankind was created higher than angels cosidering man is made in the image of God. There is no evidence in the Bible angels were made in God's image, nor can they use the creative power of faith, the strength of joy etc. Satan for example, like Melkor from Tolkein, can only twist and pervert; he cannot create on his own despite the fact he was the highest created being before mankind. Interestingly, in the linage of Jesus, when Adam was listed he was called, "Adam the son of God." That is an actual title that Jesus later had, as he was also "The Last Adam" restoring to the human race the status and position that Adam lost through His great sacrifice and love for man. Ultimatly, in his/her glorified state, it will actually be better for the human race than it was with Adam. That's no reason to not start now though. The truths of the Bible are eternal, so there's no reason not to learn them now when it *really* counts. Consider the Bible said Jesus was the 'firstborn of many brethern', firstborn, but certainly not last.

Basically, if God designed sex to work in a physical sense in mankind, his highest creation and beings made in his own image which can understand and utilize a measure of His own ability, I see no reason what that principle would ever stop.

Don't get me wrong, angels are certainly important to God's plan and the human race (I think of the human race as a firstborn in status and angels as firstborn in age, we're going to be learing a lot from eachother), but it's a bit sad people often consider them 'better' than the human race when the Bible says quite the opposite (Mankind is a 'royal race' as Revealations says). Like Lewis would say, angels are made to help us do what we need to get done on this life as messengers, protectors and ministers. All service is wholy good, but it is not equal. I'm not even sure if superior is the right word, as each 'race' really has something to do which the other cannot. Ultimately though, angels long for the day when the heirs of salvation they serve will teach them the 'deep things' of God.

Sort of like in the Constantine movie where he socks Gabriel and says, "Lesson #1 about being human, pain, get used to it." Although it won't be that extreme I think.

 

Sex is a physical act. When you die, you lose your body. So if you go to heaven, how can you have sex without a body?

Also, regardless of social notions, sex is a procreative act. In heaven, if "All is new", and nothing dies, there is no biological need for sex. Everything that happens in the universe happens out of need. It's one of "God's laws".

 

EDIT: I need to read the first post.

 

"Sex is a physical act. When you die, you lose your body. So if you go to heaven, how can you have sex without a body?"

Ah, and there in lies the misconception. A spirit actually is more "real", "harder", "more luminious", and more "glorious" than any earthly vessel. When a born again person dies, their spirit is freed from this shadow world. A human being could no more pierce a spirit with himself than could a tooth pick pierce a nuclear blast sheild. Too often the spirit is shown as a silly cloud of vaporous gas which cannot affect its surroundings. We think the spirit isn't "hard" and can move through the real "us", when in fact "we" are the shadows passing through the "real world" of the spirit. The natural state of exsistence is eternity, things which are temporal are the flimsy shadows.

Again, as Lewis would put it. The "real" London, the "real" mountains, streams, trees ect aren't "here" at all. They're only corrupted shadows of the real thing, yet because it resembles the "actual" thing which real, we assume that it is.

Too often people assume people who consider heaven are "escapist" in their mindset. I.e., why bother about life after death when there are still problems here? The answer is obvious, every person alive still has a destiny to complete, a great comission. Christians SHOULD (not all do) not write off living and consider only heaven. Our actions in this strange reality called time cause eternal echoes for good, or for evil. In many ways, it's not so disimilar from what Kriea was talking about in Knights of the Old Republic II. God is also a rewarder of those who seek and serve him, not out of fear, but genuine love and respect. Earthly treasures pass away, but our actions in serve to God and his ways will be rewarded eternally.

"If you think sex is to make babies, you have totally missed the point of it."

Indeed, even Lewis missed this point I believe. He was primarily of the old argument that sex was solely for procreation. While he was right that man's appetite for sex has gotten out of control due to sin, fundamentally, sex also exsists as a pleasure and reward God made for men and women.

Statistically, married individuals have better sex than unmarried ones because of the emotional connection and spiritual bond between them. The physical act without that leads only to emptiness, which is why many teenagers regret having pre-marital sex at a young age.

 

Yes, "Heaven" is a state of being, not a physical place.

The entire universe is "Heaven" in a way, the problem with humans is that we're too selfish to recognize and enjoy that. God is here and now, with us, besides us, in us, all the time, we humans just ignore it.

What about death then, you might ask? Our bodies just fail and decompose, so any life in the bodies stop.

A selfish person would have kept their soul attached to their body, and not have been open with the environment and others beyond itself, so when a selfish person dies the soul can't leave the body it closed up, and truly dies.

A selfless person, with love and compassion for all, valuing others as much as or more than the self, and open-minded, would have let the soul grow beyond the body, so when the body fails the soul can be freed of a body forever. Eternal Life. The soul would be free of a physical body, but it would still be in the physical world, the universe, not teleported to some extra magical dimension. The secret to bringing the Kingdom of Heaven to Earth(Universe) is to learn the Kingdom of Heaven already is, and has always been, Earth(Universe), it's us not seeing this that makes us all suffer. Once we see and treat nature, and other living beings, as a piece of "Heaven" we will be in "Heaven".



So, since you can be "in Heaven" before you "die," of course you can have sex, you have the body too! Sex is part of the natural way of life, and nature, and then "Heaven". And it has been said that God will "ressurect" the dead, so that must mean the bodies of those who survived death are returned to them, because they loved the physical world, and you probably can't help those in the physical world you love because after death they are just bodiless minds with no influence to the world they love so much, so God gives the bodies back to the faithful. So with bodies back, what will stop them from having sex? And for evidence of this added theory that our physical bodies are given back, Jesus Christ's body was ressurected, there was an empty tomb, and he could touch and feel and walk, he wasn't a spirit.

 

A very good way of putting it.

Earth is a nexus of sorts. It's either the threshhold of hell, or the first step into heaven. It really depends on how you choose to live.

 

Like all things and all places,they are what you make of them.

 

Yes, but still. There are things which are fundamentally 'real' in this world and the next. One cannot 'will' a tree or a mountain to de-exsist. The reason I posted this challenge was logically (one can use a brain obviously to interpret the Bible you just aren't supposed to be a slave to it) question the 'traditions of man' in regards to what the Bible 'actually' says, not what a group of 90 year old men think or a bunch of dead saints. I know a lot of people are stuck out there with goofy religious pictures of things which frankly don't exist, i.e. Satan is a rediculous goat skinned red man, angels wear dorky robes (you'd think heaven would update their fashion code once in a while as it is the most technologically advanced place in the universe), hell is a place where sinners are on spits and toruture racks with an 'actual' burning lake of fire and brimestone, etc etc.

"I'm not sure they have gender in heaven"

A simple question then, why did God create Adam and Eve with reproductive organs etc if he didn't intend for them to use it?

Remember, it was not God's PLAN for Adam, Eve and by result thier to fall, that was something they screwed up on their own. Nevertheless, a provision was made regardless. Adam failed to teach Eve the revealations he knew from walking with God; he did not cover her properly, and sin was the result. Even then, I believe Adam had a choice to reject Satan's lies and complete his mission to "take dominion" over the Earth and could have possibly prayed for Eve (since she was not fully taught) to have been restored, but instead he believed a lie rather than accepted the truth.

So again, gender, reproductive organs, and generally sex itself existed fully *before* the fall. Why would it cease to exsist after sin is taken away? Has God suddenly said, "hmm, maybe sex isn't a good idea afterall?" If so, there is no evidence of that in the Bible, if anything, it says the exact opposite.

 

Well first of all heaven does not exist, so it's all a moot point anyway. BUT, I think this is probably a philosophical discussion where christians don't want to venture.

Let's say heaven does exist and that somehow we can have sex without our peepees and vaginas or we have spiritual peepees and vaginas. If you approach it that way you're then opening up the emotional aspects of sex. If you lust for something in heaven than wouldn't you have those feelings that go along with lust? Jealousy maybe? Well I would presume that most people here believe that jealousy and other traits that we deem as negative would not exist in heaven correct? Well obviously if you're going to have sex in heaven there has to be a reason to, which would be because the feeling of sex is better than not having sex. Well if there are different levels of bliss in heaven and there's anything to contrast the bliss of sex to than essentially there is a "good" and a "bad". The "bad" being the feeling of not having sex. But "bad" cannot exist in heaven.

So you could take the route of saying that it's all eternal bliss, but then that would negate any reason to have sex in the first place.

Also if my girlfriend and I died and we both went to heaven and had sex, would she still be disappointed? Does size matter in heaven?

No matter where I take this argument it all leads to the same path, that the very idea of sex in heaven is even more ridiculous than the idea of heaven itself.

 

It seems to me that the traditional Christian view of sex is to procreate in a physical form.

Since there are no physical forms in Heaven in the same sense that there are on Earth, I would imagine that the need for sex would be moot.

Now, whether or not something as interesting as "spiritual intercourse" exists is another thing entirely.....

.

Peace,

V-03

 

Besides sex in heaven and joyous afterlife there, they also have an excellent dental plan.

 

Ah, and there in lies the misconception. A spirit actually is more "real", "harder", "more luminious", and more "glorious" than any earthly vessel. When a born again person dies, their spirit is freed from this shadow world.

Okay. Not what I believe (just as an FYI), but I recognize that this is your belief, so we'll run with it.

According to the Bible and Christian docterine, why do humans engage in sexual intercourse? Is it not solely because of the First Sin idea, wherein our immortality was taken from us as punishment for disobeying God? Were it not for the Apple (Sorry, Steve Jobs), we would not engage in sexual activity. There would be no reason to procreate. That is why sex in so many sects (too punny) of Christianity is considered a sin, whether married or not. Marriage and the need to procreate make it a forgivable sin, but a sin, nonetheless.

Now let's turn away from biblical docterine and look at the practical.

Sex is but 1 tool of many to achieve a close bond. Do you believe that people who are physically incapable of having sex (ex: quadriplegic) cannot have a deep, close and intimate marriage equal to that of someone who has marital sex every week?

 

"Now, whether or not something as interesting as "spiritual intercourse" exists is another thing entirely....."

Now that is definately what I had in mind!




"Marriage and the need to procreate make it a forgivable sin, but a sin, nonetheless."

Why is that? Is it the nudity? Is it the intense body touching?

 

This entire argument hinges on Centuries of
mistaken philosophy,and wrong headed notions
of what constitute Heaven and Hell.

The notion of menstruation being some kind of
punishment is repugnant,for though it can be
hard to deal with,it was Part of the purpose
of the Divine from the beginning,it is rather
difficult to "Fill the Earth and have Dominion
over it",if you don't increase the population
beyond a primary pair.

Heaven is a place of work,the beings there are
not material,they have no need for Pee-pees
and Hoohas,as some have so delicately stated it.
No need for thes thing is there when each being
subordinate to the Creator,has relative Immortality.

In fact it was when some of those original inhabitant
of Heaven decided that they needed to feel what human
flesh was like,that the being known as The Devil,and
the demons came about.

They all started life a Angels,but desired what was
truly unnatural for them,sex,they had no need for it
and it was because they did not set that desire
aside that they were cast out.

So the matter of Sex is heaven is moot,it is a
condition that exists only for the material
dimensions it doesn't work on the Spirit plane.

I'm sure if The Maker wanted it to be so,it could
be but He does not and so it is not.

There,all life is much as Yoda
describes it 'luminous beings,not crude matter'

 

"According to the Bible and Christian docterine, why do humans engage in sexual intercourse? Is it not solely because of the First Sin idea, wherein our immortality was taken from us as punishment for disobeying God? Were it not for the Apple (Sorry, Steve Jobs), we would not engage in sexual activity. There would be no reason to procreate. That is why sex in so many sects (too punny) of Christianity is considered a sin, whether married or not. Marriage and the need to procreate make it a forgivable sin, but a sin, nonetheless."

I'm afraid that's entirely incorrent. You're saying Adam and Eve would have been childless for all eternity? If so, that directly contradicts scripture which says to man "be fruitful and multiply." The analogy is flawed. God created sex for mankind's enjoyment and for procreation. As I said earlier, did God suddenly change his mind about sex at somepoint in the bible? "Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled ... Hebrews 13:4"

"In fact it was when some of those original inhabitant
of Heaven decided that they needed to feel what human
flesh was like,that the being known as The Devil,and
the demons came about."

That's not *really* what the Bible said. Lucifer wanted to take the place of God himself. Which is insane of course, imagine the willpower needed to look at God himself and then decide, "I'm going to kill you and take your place." He really only chose to attack humans to hurt God, and to try to get him to go through with the plan of redemption, which was actually a huge risk (I'll explain more later). Remember, mankind had not been created at this point. Lucifer's rebellion occured long before Adam was made.

"They all started life a Angels,but desired what was
truly unnatural for them,sex,they had no need for it
and it was because they did not set that desire
aside that they were cast out."

Let me reiterate, 1/3 of the angels who followed Lucifer out of hell wasn't for pleasure. It was because they were convinced Lucifer could win in a war against God. I'll explain the mechanics of that later as well. Both Genesis and the Book of Enoch talk about the hideious sin done when angels mated with humans. It was to try to pollute the human race genetically so the Messiah could not come, and to corrupt the human race beyond God's redemption. That was why the flood in Noah's day was nessiscary. God was grieved because the thoughts of every "mutant" on the planet was only on evil 24/7 and for a moment he regretted he made the human race. Only Noah and his family were "pure blooded" humans by the time of the flood.

"So the matter of Sex is heaven is moot,it is a
condition that exists only for the material
dimensions it doesn't work on the Spirit plane."

The Garden of Eden says otherwise. Remember, it was not God's plan for mankind to fall. And Adam and Eve would have gotten around to making babies sooner or later. Moreover, they essentially had glorified bodies already, which is something we get back in heaven.

"I'm sure if The Maker wanted it to be so,it could
be but He does not and so it is not."

Again, that's not what pre-fall Genesis says.

When a spiritual law is put into effect, it is never rescined except for a direct statement in the bible. I.e., the old covenant being replaced with the new.

"There,all life is much as Yoda
describes it 'luminous beings,not crude matter'"

Which is *why* sex will be so much better there.

Let's stick to the main points of what the bible says

"Be fruitful and multiply"- Stated BEFORE the fall

"It is not good for man to be alone"- Again, before the fall

"All things made new"- After the fall, speaking of the restoration of the world and the final restoration of mankind.

""Now, whether or not something as interesting as "spiritual intercourse" exists is another thing entirely....."

Now that is definately what I had in mind!"

Why not? God created sex organs afterall. When Adam and Eve fell, they didn't suddenly "sprout" sex organs and say, "Oh no! We've sinne

 

I have a better idea,let me see the scripture
that says that Humans,who go to Heaven will have sex?
There is also the small matter of these verses
Mark 12:25 and Galatians 3:28

Mortal,material being have need of it
And make no mistake about it,
Adam and Eve were mortal,
otherwise the doubts raised
by the Serpent,with regard
to the fuit of the Tree would
have rung hollow.