Senate A thread to combat the factual errors on Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili and Mao Zhe Dong

Both men of great morals and strength, Josef and Mao united with the West and helped them crush the Germans and Japanese who united in an unholy union to conquer the Earth. However what history hasn't shown is that despite America's great sacrifices, it was Mao and Josef who sacrificed more of their people and for Josef his own son so that the world could triumph over the Nazi and Japanese evil. But even more remarkable was that both allied with each other and were able to destroy the parasitic vesitiges of Western influence which held their countries in the 19th century. They were able to help the long negelected peasants and workers who had been ignored by the nobility and landowners of both Russia and the Middle Kingdom. Introducing 20th century reforms such as women's rights and destroying the class system which held their people in a strangle hold they brought a glorious revolution into their country which had not been seen for hundreds of years.

Further more Mao and Josef rebuilt their countries from the ruins of World War II caused by Hitler and Hirohito into what we now see. They were able to rebuild the economies and militaries of both their countries into super powers that would contiue to rival the West. And most remarkable unlike many Western leaders such as kennedy, johnson or roosevelt, Josef and Mao weren't corrupted by the power they held. When Josef died, he owned less than the average Russian citizen, dedicating all his life to serving the people. And it was the same for Mao, he stepped down from power handing it over to such people as Zhou En Lai so that he wouldn't be corrupted by such power.

 

Um... OK.

So Stalin and Mao, the two men who killed the most people in the world (you talk about Hitler being a great evil, but you fail to mention the Great Purges of the 1930s in the USSR, the Gulag, or the Cultural Revolution) were not corrupt?

Believe what you want to believe, but this is nothing more than communist propoganda or the worst type. Advocating Marxism is one thing. Supporting these evil dictators is quite another. How'd you like it if I started a thread titled "A thread to combat the factual errors on Herr Hitler" and I filled it with stuff like "this uncorrupt man rebuilt Germany from the ashes of WW1 into a great power and conquerored Europe and the unholy Communists. Sieg Heil!"

EDIT: For those who don't know, Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili is our friendly Man of Steel. No, not Superman. Stalin.

 

What factual errors are you correcting. All you have done is a present a rather slanted view point of these two men. Your arguement is deviod of facts.

 

If we throw in the fact that Stalin killed or starved 20 million of his own people, then I guess that puts him over the top as the world's greatest dictator. Way to go, Stalin! Tell him what he's won!

[image=http://home.att.net/~bevebay2/ricearoni.jpg]

AYBABTU?

 

Mao had no control over the cultural revolution. He encouraged non-violence, but thanks to the gang of four it became a purge.

And for Josef, the people that he put in the gulag or killed were opposed to many of his plans and many of them such as Trotsky were only part of the Soviet Union only to gain power not to govern.

 

What in the hell type of crack are you smoking?

Both men of great morals and strength

Once again read my crack comment. Mao is responsible for more deaths than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED.

However what history hasn't shown is that despite America's great sacrifices, it was Mao and Josef who sacrificed more of their people and for Josef his own son so that the world could triumph over the Nazi and Japanese evil.

Thats easy to do when you have the war being fought in your front yard. It also says something about Chinese/Soviet fighting style. THey both seem to use the philosphy to overwhelm their eneimes regardless of the cost, which is usually millions of men.

But even more remarkable was that both allied with each other and were able to destroy the parasitic vesitiges of Western influence which held their countries in the 19th century.

You know little about western influences in China and Russia in the 19th century. China was considered weak throughout the early half of the twentieth century because they refused western influences, it put them WAY behind the rest of the world. Russia was using an archaic monarchy.

They were able to help the long negelected peasants and workers who had been ignored by the nobility and landowners of both Russia and the Middle Kingdom.

Thats what they claimed, but history shows it quite differently.

Introducing 20th century reforms such as women's rights and destroying the class system which held their people in a strangle hold they brought a glorious revolution into their country which had not been seen for hundreds of years.

Womens rights in China? Is this a fan fic your writing?

They were able to rebuild the economies and militaries of both their countries into super powers that would contiue to rival the West.

Once again the crack comment comes into play. The Soviet Union collapsed because of nationalism and a weak economy, China has a capitalist style economy, but it was adopted after Maos death.

And most remarkable unlike many Western leaders such as kennedy, johnson or roosevelt, Josef and Mao weren't corrupted by the power they held.

Once again with the crack comment. I must say, this gave me a good laugh. I can't deny western leaders are corrupt, but Soviet/PRC leaders are more corrupt. They had people put to death who opposed them, entire towns were wiped out, if thats not corrupt then what is?

When Josef died, he owned less than the average Russian citizen, dedicating all his life to serving the people.

Ahh but how did he live? The Russian people lived in small houses that were hard to keep warm, and were mostly poorly constructed, Im willing ot bet Josef didn't live like that, he probably had himself a nice little mansion.

 

"What factual errors are you correcting. All you have done is a present a rather slanted view point of these two men. Your arguement is deviod of facts. "

I'm rather curious have you lived in pre-revolution China or Russia? My grandparents and that of several of my friends have, it was basically a class based society where the peasants were treated like crap, the military and economy were in shambles, women were treated like crap and the West shamelessly exploited both countries and allowed the evil rulers(Empress Cixi, Jiang Jie Shi and Czar Nicholas II) to maintain power at the expense of modernization.

 

Mao had no control over the cultural revolution. He encouraged non-violence, but thanks to the gang of four it became a purge.

The gang of four was already out of the way by that time. That was all Mao's doing.

And for Josef, the people that he put in the gulag or killed were opposed to many of his plans and many of them such as Trotsky were only part of the Soviet Union only to gain power not to govern.

The vast majority of people in the Gulag had no interest in power. They were simple peasants, many of them there because they were not communist, and many because they had been falsely accused of not being communist. Since when is opposing a politician's plans an offense that should be punished by slave labour until death, which is what the Gulag was? I don't agree with you. Does this mean I have a right to make you my slave, and refuse to feed you until you die?

 

"You know little about western influences in China and Russia in the 19th century. China was considered weak throughout the early half of the twentieth century because they refused western influences, it put them WAY behind the rest of the world. Russia was using an archaic monarchy."

Considering that the West helped the Emperors, the Nationalists and the Czars maintain power I'd say there was quite a lot of influence just no modernization.


"Thats what they claimed, but history shows it quite differently. "

My grandparents happen to be those workers so I'd believee them.

"Womens rights in China? Is this a fan fic your writing? "

Have you been to China? Go there and see for yourself.

"Once again the crack comment comes into play. The Soviet Union collapsed because of nationalism and a weak economy, China has a capitalist style economy, but it was adopted after Maos death. "

But Mao was able to build up the industry to allow China's growth and the Soviet Union only collapsed because of weak leaders after Josef.

"Once again with the crack comment. I must say, this gave me a good laugh. I can't deny western leaders are corrupt, but Soviet/PRC leaders are more corrupt. They had people put to death who opposed them, entire towns were wiped out, if thats not corrupt then what is?"

They only wiped out those that were opposed to modernization and were elements of the old order.

 

And for Josef, the people that he put in the gulag or killed were opposed to many of his plans and many of them such as Trotsky were only part of the Soviet Union only to gain power not to govern

Now Ive heard everything. SO its ok to kill people if they oppose your plans? You dont think thats not an abuse of power? Where did you learn history? JC Penny?

Trotsky would have been much better for the USSR than Stalin, the Soviet Union would still be around if he became premeir. Even Lenin thought Trotsky should follow him as premeir, KGB files have shown Lenin not wanting Stalin to have any part of the Soviet Union after he died, he considered bumping Stalin off, but kicked the bucket before he got to.

 

"The gang of four was already out of the way by that time. That was all Mao's doing. "

Read your chinese history and you'd know that they were still very much in power back then.

 

"Now Ive heard everything. SO its ok to kill people if they oppose your plans? You dont think thats not an abuse of power? Where did you learn history? JC Penny? "

If their actions would cause a civil war that would endanger much of the modernization that were introduced that I say yes.

 

They only wiped out those that were opposed to modernization and were elements of the old order.

Translation: They wiped out those who were opposed to the communist revolution.

Kind of reminds me of the Jedi purges. Let me guess. You think Palpatine is the protagonist in SW.

 

Does not wanting to give your farm over to the collective at gunpoint constitute reasonable endangerment to that modernization? Those are the ones that were executed.

AYBABTU?

 

alternate history

Thats where you go to discuss Alternate History. This is where we come to debate facts.

China has some of the worst violations of womens rights in the world, much worse than in the west, in spite of what you allegedly saw. Afterall the UN doesn't list China on its list of human rights violators for nothing.

 

Afterall the UN doesn't list China on its list of human rights violators for nothing

//waits for him to accuse the UN of being pro-west

 

The fact that I've female relatives living there that hold high positions in the private and public sectors says otherwise. The human rights violations occur in the countryside where the government doesn't have as much influence.

 

You mean where the media doesn't have as much visibility?

AYBABTU?

 

"Translation: They wiped out those who were opposed to the communist revolution. "

Many of them supported the nationalists and got rich by bounding the peasants to the land for hundreds of years.

 

The human rights violations occur in the countryside where the government doesn't have as much influence.

Oh but wait I thought you said Mao and the government were good for the people, all the people, peasants included, not just the city folk, but the country people too. Is that a contradiction I see?

 

"You mean where the media doesn't have as much visibility? "

How so? Considering that many of my family live in the central parts or the northern parts where you don't see any americans or westerners.

And guess what the communists also got rid of prostitution, the practice of having concubines and bounding the feet of women.

Also if you want to see human rights violations try Taiwan. I've friends who were beaten by their siblings for years just because they were girls.

 

"Oh but wait I thought you said Mao and the government were good for the people, all the people, peasants included, not just the city folk, but the country people too. Is that a contradiction I see? "

Land reforms were created and the peasants had a much better life, but if you've been to the countryside then you'd know that the law isn't very powerful there.

 

Does not wanting to give your farm over to the collective at gunpoint constitute reasonable endangerment to that modernization? Those are the ones that were executed.

Yep. My mothers family ran into this situation in the Ukraine. They were Mennonites running farms. They were lucky to get out in the 20's before things got really bad.

 

And guess what the communists also got rid of prostitution

How? By brutally murdering all the prostitutes?

 

Land reforms were created and the peasants had a much better life, but if you've been to the countryside then you'd know that the law isn't very powerful there.

This would be laughable, if it weren't so tragic. "Land reforms" involved forced collectivisation and starving of millions, "re-educating" scholars, and killing hopes for modernisation. "The law," to those men, was the iron fist by which they ruled, and it worked just fine in the countryside.