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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Senate A thread to combat the factual errors on Josef Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili and Mao Zhe Dong

Discussion in 'Community' started by Gharlane, Nov 22, 2002.

  1. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    "Maybe even Proudhon and Bakunin."

    Scarlet, tell me you don't admire those fire-breathing anarchists.


     
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Ah, Bakunin. Didn't Marx hate him?

    E_S
     
  3. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Communists are the enemies of freedom and of democracy.

    Much like Islamist funamentalists.
     
  4. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    More broad, unsubstantiated pronouncements?
     
  5. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    If you don't see that communism is the enemy of freedom and democracy R-S, than I really don't need to explain it to you. Or, you must have a really short memory not to remember what we fought against in the Cold War.
     
  6. Jedi_Xen

    Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2001
    If you don't see that communism is the enemy of freedom and democracy R-S, than I really don't need to explain it to you. Or, you must have a really short memory not to remember what we fought against in the Cold War

    What everyone is saying is that isn't communism but rather Stalinism or Leninism. Most people look at Trotskyism as more Communism.

    Communism I believe can work, the US military is communist like, they work on paygrades, and almost everything is supplied, mostly just what you need. I still believe the military is grossly underpaid.

    Now we are way off topic, almost all of us agree Stalin and Mao were hardly good people, and there is no factual error to debate here.
     
  7. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Communism I believe can work


    It is truly insane that we still have people today that truly believe this.
     
  8. Admiral_Thrawn60

    Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2000
    You didn't fight against Marxism in the cold war, Darth Mischievous. You fought against one of the many perversions of communism.

    I'm not communist, but I will defend it when I encounter libel.
     
  9. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
  10. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    If you don't see that communism is the enemy of freedom and democracy R-S, than I really don't need to explain it to you. Or, you must have a really short memory not to remember what we fought against in the Cold War.

    Communism is the truest expression of democracy; people govern every part of their own lives. The same with freedom - there is no freedom missing.

    You, Mischievous, are deeply misguided. Look at the source of that biography - it's an Economics and Liberal site, obviously biased. That's obvious from the very first line.

    I have read several biographies of Karl Marx, from several different sources. Not a single one has ever painted him as the father of Russian Communism - merely as a sometimes forceful, sometimes dogmatic, one-time philandering family man. I recommend the one by Francis Wheen, if you're prepared to open your eyes long to enough to actually educate yourself, and not spew mindless propaganda.

    Marxism itself doesn't resemble in the least the Stalinism which was fought against in the Cold War (and may I remind you that the Cold War wasn't really fought?) Until you accept this, you're going to look like an idiot repeatedly stating a wrong, libellous point.

    For god's sake, Mischievous, just read some Marx yourself. Even if it's only the Communist Manifesto. You'll see that it isn't a threat to freedom and democracy.

    - Scarlet.
     
  11. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    Communism is the truest expression of democracy; people govern every part of their own lives. The same with freedom - there is no freedom missing


    And you call me deeply misguided. That is a pinheaded statement.

    Until you accept this, you're going to look like an idiot repeatedly stating a wrong, libellous point.


    Listen, I gave 4 years of my life serving the US miltiary defending our nation.

    I don't need to explain myself any further at what a danger to the world that communism was and is - the system that Karl Marx dreamed up. And the failure it was in so many countries.

    Also, I don't have to listen or read pinheaded Commie propaganda to change my mind, because I won't.

    It's a good thing this is a free country that you can spout that Commie pinheaded garbage out, but I can tell you that many people are killed and imprisoned in China and were in the former Soviet Union (and satellite nations) for promoting Democratic views.
     
  12. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Darth, the Francis Wheen bio is indeed good. You may enjoy it; it's hardly hagiographic (like so much of the BS about Ernesto Guevara, for example) and points out what Marx stood for and why it has not yet been reproduced on earth. I don't like communism, but I respect and listen to marxists rather than shutting my mind to them. What we fought against the in the Cold War was not Marxism, or Communism. It was totalitarianism. It was a threat to our freedom and our way of life. And, as incidents such as the Hungarian invasion prove, we were the lesser of two evils when it came to overthrowing governments and maintaining hegemony. Heck, IMHO, we were the good guys, goldurn'it! ;)

    We still have remnants of Marx: Philips, the Dutch Electric Company! :D

    E_S
     
  13. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    And you call me deeply misguided. That is a pinheaded statement.

    HOW? How about, instead of stating rubbish like that, you actually back up your arguments with evidence, or at least, developed and respectable opinion. Not stupid name-calling.

    Listen, I gave 4 years of my life serving the US miltiary defending our nation.

    And that gives you the right to be bloody ignorant? The fact that you jumped in a uniform makes you a reliable source on all things Communism?

    I don't need to explain myself any further at what a danger to the world that communism was and is - the system that Karl Marx dreamed up.

    Karl Marx was not the sole progenitor of Communism. If you knew anything about the topic, you'd know that. And it is hardly a big a danger as your reactionary, dogmatic statements about it!

    Also, I don't have to listen or read pinheaded Commie propaganda to change my mind, because I won't.

    "Pinheaded Commie propaganda"? That's rich. First of all, I am not a "Commie." I am a Communist. I consider the first term of that derrogatory, as it is often employed by redneck yokels who call every left-leaning person a 'commie bastard,' and proclaim that they'd 'rather be dead than red.' Furthermore, I'm not the one talking propaganda - it is you that is reusing ridiculous Cold War stereotypes about Communism which are blatantly false, and should not be the domain of intelligent people who gather to debate serious issues.

    It's a good thing this is a free country that you can spout that Commie pinheaded garbage out,

    I'm not in your damn country, and I'm glad as well, as that makes me a lot further away from you. How is what I have been saying "Commie pinheaded propaganda"? How about you address the issue instead of resorting to childish name-calling?

    but I can tell you that many people are killed and imprisoned in China and were in the former Soviet Union (and satellite nations) for promoting Democratic views.

    I know. But you know what? Neither of them were Communist/Marxist. The USSR and China operated/operate a system of far-right totalitariansim and national unification, along with Stalinist communism (not communism, but a wayward derivation thereof). Their process is no more Communist than America is feudalist.

    Why don't you actually address what I'm saying instead of labelling me a "commie pinhead" (repeatedly, much to your own detriment), calling what I'm saying propaganda (I highly doubt it, when people, of both right and left persuasions, as you'll notice above, have tried to tell you repeatedly that you have a misguided view of Communism), and making yourself out to be the defender of freedom and democracy.

    What you are is the defender of willfull ignorance and stupidity - I don't use that word lightly, but how else can I describe the actions of someone who refuses, flatout, to listen to anything I'm saying as "Commie propaganda"?

    Darth, the Francis Wheen bio is indeed good.

    Ooh. You read it, E_S?

    What we fought against the in the Cold War was not Marxism, or Communism. It was totalitarianism. It was a threat to our freedom and our way of life.

    Very well put.

    - Scarlet.
     
  14. DarthKarde

    DarthKarde Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2002
    Also, I don't have to listen or read pinheaded Commie propaganda to change my mind, because I won't.

    Understanding an opposing point of view is essential if you are to ever argue against it in a credible manor.

    but I can tell you that many people are killed and imprisoned in China and were in the former Soviet Union (and satellite nations) for promoting Democratic views.

    The same thing can be said of many capitalist countries. The fact that certain governments abuse a system does not in itself make that system wrong.

    D_M - No one opposes communism in any of its forms more than I do but your arguements are ignorant propaganda that is deviod of facts.
     
  15. Darth Mischievous

    Darth Mischievous Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 1999
    I have no respect for Communism nor have I any respect for Commies (aka Communists).

    I don't give a crap about their ideology. I don't want to learn it. I consider communists my enemies.

    I don't want to "understand" communism, just as I don't want to understand national socialism.

    I don't want to read Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto.

    Nor do I want to read Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf.

    It's all the same crap that resides now for the most part in the garbage can of political thought, and no civilized society pays any mind to communist ideology anymore.

    But, in a free democratic society, you are allowed free speech to spout that garbage and not get arrested or otherwise, as long as you don't attempt armed revolt.
     
  16. obhavekenobi78

    obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 20, 2002
    Number one, The United States is not democratic, but rather a "Federal" Republic.

    Number two, it is contrived closed-minded views such as the one that you tout here that keep us all from progressing as a people. Communism isn't evil, my friend, but it has been bended to serve evil men. Can you not say the same for Capitalism? Do you truly believe the the Founding Fathers envisioned America as it is now? No, it has also been warped to suit the desires of greedy men. Don't be so quick to site Communism as a failed government as we are still in our youth and are showing signs of growing pains ourselves.

    I hope that we will endure, that we can overcome the inherent evil present in mankind and rise above the remains of those who tried before us to achieve the great dream of peace and happiness for all. Is that not a noble desire? Marx believed it was.
     
  17. Red-Seven

    Red-Seven Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 21, 1999
    "commie pinhead garbage"

    Give me one reason why I shouldn't ban you for flaming.


    You seriously need to tone down the belligerence if you want to continue in this discussion. If you consider that there is nothing on this issue to discuss (on a bloody discussion board, no less), from your point of view, fine. You've had your rant, and repeating it dogmatically and calling people names will get you banned.


    If you want to argue that the mechanisms for acheiving Marxism naturally lead to totalitarianism via human nature, fine. If you want to argue that collectivising the means of production severely weakens property rights, which is a bedrock liberty, and hence explains the erosion of liberties in the "Communist" states of this century, that would also be defensible. It links back to why Stalin and Mao were heads of totalitarian states with Marxist trappings.

    If you want to argue about economic efficiency in a Marxism vs. Capitalist vs. Socialist system, that's NOT fine, as this topic is about Stalin and Mao, and the judgement of history on these men and their effects on the countries, millions of deceased citizens, and the world. That discussion belongs elsewhere. Repeated namecalling and broad, unsupported allegetions belong nowhere.
     
  18. Admiral_Thrawn60

    Admiral_Thrawn60 Jedi Youngling star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 2000
    Your article doesn't support your view that the west fought against Marxism in the Cold War in any way, Darth Mischievous.

    No interest in reading Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto, eh? I pity you. You'd rather be another mindless follower and just believe what you were told to believe.


    I, for one, have read both books, and while I agree with neither, I am very thankful for that understanding I have of both ideologies.

    If you don't want to understand any ideology other than your own, then that's your choice. If you want to live a blissfully ignorant existance, then that's up to you. But, you're only hurting yourself.


    EDIT: Removed implied flame

    Listen up, people. Let's move on constructively, and not stoop to personal challenges. I'm going to be a bit of an ogre here, and be very strict. Play nice


     
  19. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    I have no respect for Communism nor have I any respect for Commies (aka Communists).

    I am a Communist. I am not a "Commie." Your repeated statement of that, despite the fact I've told you that I find it derrogatory, is damaging to your personal credibility.

    I don't give a crap about their ideology. I don't want to learn it. I consider communists my enemies.

    I consider ignorance my enemy. How can you consider something you don't even know an enemy? How do you know that, were you to read Communist literature, you wouldn't find yourself in agreement with it, or at least parts of it? How can you be so bold as to make such inflammatory comments, then confess to not knowing a thing about which you are talking?

    I don't want to "understand" communism, just as I don't want to understand national socialism.

    That's your choice. I understand both. The first to a great degree, and the second to a degree that came from half a years of University study of it.

    I don't want to read Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto.

    Fine, don't. No one is forcing you. Just don't comment on it, or the ideology it presents, until you have. I wouldn't DREAM of criticising, say, Titanic, with the extent and ferociousness that you have criticised Communism, had I not seen it. It's common courtesy.

    Nor do I want to read Adolph Hitler's Mein Kampf.

    Your loss. You don't have to agree with it. I, in fact, own two versions. I think it is ridiculous, but it is also one of the most defining documents of the previous century.

    If there was a list, of, say, the top 20 most influential books that ever existed, both the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf would be included in that list. It is an intellectual exercise to read literature with which you may not personally agree. That's what gives you the right to criticise it.

    It's all the same crap that resides now for the most part in the garbage can of political thought, and no civilized society pays any mind to communist ideology anymore.

    Marxism is still one of the most influential forces in sociological, economic and political circles. As is Nazism, to varying degrees - only last week did a neo-Nazi group here in Britain win a council seat.

    But, in a free democratic society, you are allowed free speech to spout that garbage and not get arrested or otherwise, as long as you don't attempt armed revolt.

    Why would I do that, when I have no chance of winning? ;)

    Is that not a noble desire? Marx believed it was.

    Excellent post. I liked the Founding Fathers comment - I actually wrote an essay about that once (how America has differed from what the Founding Fathers might have envisioned).

    No interest in reading Mein Kampf or the Communist Manifesto, eh? I pity you. You'd rather be another mindless follower and just believe what you were told to believe.

    That'd sum up pretty much my thought on the issue.

    - Scarlet.
     
  20. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    Scarlet, tell me you don't admire those fire-breathing anarchists.

    Eh. I dislike Bakunin, but have a soft spot for Proudhon. I agree with neither's particular theory, though each has made excellent contributions to leftism.

    I mean, the opening to Proudhon's What is Property?, "Property is theft!", has to be one of the most awesome phrases from leftist literature, ever. ;)

    Ah, Bakunin. Didn't Marx hate him?

    Yeah, with a vengance. Bakunin was a power-seeking hypocrite. However, Marx had his downfalls too (it's often said that, by way of his dogmatic, Savanarola-like approach to politics, he alienated more possible Communists than convinced them!).

    - Scarlet.
     
  21. Guinastasia

    Guinastasia Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2002
    Well, probably, basic communism can exist voluntarily, on a small level-for example, at a monastery, where everyone pitches in, does their share for the good of the community.

    However, I can't see it working as an economic system.

    Plus, I found Marxism too extreme and intolerant.

    Read Aleksander Kerensky's The Crucifixion of Liberty and John Stuart Mill's On Liberty.

     
  22. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    Plus, I found Marxism too extreme and intolerant.

    I have never seen anything to tell me that this is so.

    I have also read both of those authors (most particularly J.S. Mill), and neither, I believe, have said anything damning about Marxism.

    Care to provide evidence of this rather curious belief?

    - Scarlet.
     
  23. ShaneP

    ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 26, 2001
    "Do you truly believe the the Founding Fathers envisioned America as it is now?"

    By "founding fathers" you mean Washington, Jefferson, Madison?

    No, today's America is not as they envisioned it. They had no idea what would lay in store for the nation. Jefferson and Madison were fairly anti-commercial in outlook. Many nobles or landowners(landed) of the period considered commercial activity to be beneath them.

    But, if you're going to say Hamilton, Hancock, or Franklin were anti-commerce, you couldn't be further off. Hancock was a wealthy merchant and Franklin, a inventor and businessman. Hamilton was partly responsible for the establishment of the central banking system.

    The "founders" were of a very unique time and place in history.

    But, you cannot compare them, men of the enlightenment, to Marx, who was a romantic idealogue of the highest order. He was also of his own place and time unique to history.

     
  24. MarvinTheMartian

    MarvinTheMartian Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 31, 2002
    How can you possibly call yourself a liberal scarlett banner? REAL liberals are also economics liberalists, like Milton Freidman.

    "Property is theft!", has to be one of the most awesome phrases from leftist literature, ever

    It sounds more like Communist propaganda, spoken by someone with no regard whatsoever for freedom or individual rights, more likely.

    I don't want to read Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto.

    Fine, don't. No one is forcing you. Just don't comment on it, or the ideology it presents, until you have. I wouldn't DREAM of criticising, say, Titanic, with the extent and ferociousness that you have criticised Communism, had I not seen it. It's common courtesy.

    I myself plan on reading those books sometime soon...maybe I'll find them on the 'fiction' shelves hey?! or maybe in the bargain bin, labelled 'discredited theories'!

    Marxism is still one of the most influential forces in sociological, economic and political circles. As is Nazism, to varying degrees - only last week did a neo-Nazi group here in Britain win a council seat.

    I disagree. Just because one group wins ONE seat on a council hardly qualifies it as influential. I am comfortably say that the Economists John Maynard Keynes and Milton Freidman have by far had the greatest influence on mdern economics in the western world.

    In universities, yes, Marxian philosophies are frequently held in much higher regard, but outside university campuses you will be hard pressed to find anyone who takes his views seriously.

    Why would I do that, when I have no chance of winning?

    Hmm. This certainly sounds like a concession that communism is now irrelevant.
     
  25. TheScarletBanner

    TheScarletBanner Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 19, 2002
    But, you cannot compare them, men of the enlightenment, to Marx, who was a romantic idealogue of the highest order. He was also of his own place and time unique to history.

    As were the Founding Fathers. Marx was not a 'romantic' in any sense of the world, he saw the science of socialism and dialectic materialism as a verifiable science like any other - not a hopeless ideal.

    How can you possibly call yourself a liberal scarlett banner? REAL liberals are also economics liberalists, like Milton Freidman.

    I don't call myself a liberal, bucko. I call myself a Communist. And not all liberals are economic liberalists.

    It sounds more like Communist propaganda, spoken by someone with no regard whatsoever for freedom or individual rights, more likely.

    It was written by Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, who, along with Mikhail Bakunin, is considered the founder of anarchism, not Communism. Proudhon argued that the possession of private property violated more rights than it offered.

    Your inability to recognise it is highly telling of your biased view of politics, philosophy and economics.

    I myself plan on reading those books sometime soon...maybe I'll find them on the 'fiction' shelves hey?! or maybe in the bargain bin, labelled 'discredited theories'!

    You're pretty funny, aren't you? [/sarcasm]. Also damn childish. The Communist Manifesto is a political work like any other; its more... developed buddy, Das Kapital, is roughly comparable to a Marxian Wealth of Nations. To call it, even if you disagree with its premises, 'fiction,' is childish, ignorant and laughable all at the same time. Just as I would never call Wealth of Nations a piece of fiction, I would expect you to present your view (which you are doing more harm than good, at the moment) of the Communist Manifesto in a more mature fashion.

    But, wait -- you haven't read it. So what exactly are you DOING debating this subject again? What makes you think, if you have not even read that most preliminary piece, that you have any right whatsoever to debate the subject? It's roughly equievelant for me to enter a debate on Virgil's writing ability without having read any Virgil at all.

    By refraining from the kind of post you just made, you'd be doing your cause a lot more good. Instead of creating a good impression, it severely damages your credibility, especially when you litter your post with stupidity like that 'fiction' comment.

    I disagree. Just because one group wins ONE seat on a council hardly qualifies it as influential.

    It, in fact, owns three council seats in the area. It also has enough influence to earn a spot on the front page of several national newspapers.

    I am comfortably say that the Economists John Maynard Keynes and Milton Freidman have by far had the greatest influence on mdern economics in the western world.

    That's highly debatable. Furthermore, I'm finding it difficult to read your sentences - could you possibly attempt to amend the grammar?

    In universities, yes, Marxian philosophies are frequently held in much higher regard, but outside university campuses you will be hard pressed to find anyone who takes his views seriously.

    That's because most people outside of those who are dedicated to its study (i.e., those at University), are unable to grasp the full breadth of Communism, dialectic materialism, economics, philosophy and sociology that Marxism encompasses.

    Hmm. This certainly sounds like a concession that communism is now irrelevant.

    Learn how to read. My response came as a reply to a comment about armed revolution, which I confessed I couldn't win. Which is hardly surprising, as I don't even have a gun.

    - Scarlet