OOC A Tide of Discussion: the d20 ToF OOC thread

I see I've got people's attention

Some items to mention here.

The dragon's location: as Light pointed out, the dragon was on top of the tower at the gate, thinking perhaps that it's a rather good spot to sit and watch while Brindol's cavalry gets murdered. Assuming it has a full round of actions -- which I'll get to -- it can therefore breathe on anything that's within 50 feet, i.e. you, since the tower's only 30 feet high. EDIT: This is the tower at Z13 - AB15, for the interested.

Timing: There's no surprise round in this case. If all parties are aware of one another, no surprise round happens. As Light rightly points out, it's rather impossible for a big flappy thing 15 feet long by 15 feet wide for tactial purposes with a Stealth modifier of -8 or so to really not be noticed. But at the same time, it's also rather impossible for four dudes who materialise almost under said flappy thing's nose where said flappy thing has a Perception modifier in the +22 range or so. And Blindsense. And Keen Senses. And Darkvision. Particularly when two of said people start coughing rather violently.

Here's how I saw it: the initiative counts start fresh when Mazarun jumps the party to the West Gate. Before that point, round countdowns are happening just so I can keep track of spell durations and distances travelled, not for tactical purposes, particularly since nobody can engage the dragon at more than 400 feet or so. When they appear, the four are subject to thick smoke, so they take Fort rolls, which Evelios and Zanaek fail, thus they're down coughing for this round. Nobody at the West Gate is surprised, so nobody acts in the surprise round. Initiative is rolled, the dragon casts Nerveskitter, which results in the initiative table as set: Corrath first, then the dragon, then everybody else as set down. So the dragon acts before anybody on the ground does anyway.

Maximise Breath: I'd overlooked it was a full-round action -- oops. Well, that's impossible by the rules, and wasn't intended, so: that will be corrected. http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4060100/ -- the dragon breathes for 73 damage, meaning everyone who fails their saving throws takes 43 damage in effect.

Instead of using an Action Point to emulate Maximise Breath, it uses an Action Point to emulate Tempest Breath. At its size that means its breath weapon also creates an Instantaneous Windstorm effect, meaning if you fail a Fort check at 1d20+8, you're also knocked prone by the blast. That roll results as follows against Zanaek, Evelios, Skadi, and Mazarun in order: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4060107/ . Looks like nobody falls over from that one. But since the dragon still has a move action, it uses its 150 feet of flight to cruise off into the smoke and flames.

Saving throws: as Light points out, I suppose you can still use APs on saving throws. On the other hand, you can only use one AP per round (unless your name is William Marshall and you've cast Unfettered Heroism, that is.) So if you're going to do that, you either use it on the dragon breath or you use it on the coughing effect.


So let's get down to the somewhat less mechanical item, per Mitth:

...why we were DMed into area with burning buildings? Even if we couldn't see through walls, Maz would be able to see where the glow of fires are at and NOT send us there. On top of the battlements would have been a better place than among buildings.

To which my answer is: how come you (or rather Zanaek) -- or anyone bar Light -- didn't point this out to Rilwen/Mazarun before you jumped?
IC or OOC?
Did anyone actually ask "Where's the dragon right now?"

I waited quite a while for people to come up with plans and/or ideas. I asked specifically where you wanted to go. I'll assume some things to help the game along -- casting hour/level spells, for example -- but I'm not going to fully plan out your attack for you. You knew you were jumping into an area of town where a dragon was hanging out, and I told you the tavern district was on fire. I wasn't asked for choices of jump locations; I wasn't asked about distances; I wasn't asked how long it would take for the fliers to get there if Mazarun teleported people through.

 

Well, Ariel has lowlight vision, and because it's a full moon, sees clearly as if it's daylight. On the other hand, to pinpoint it I think you'd need a Perception (spot) check, it's a -1 to the roll for every 10 feet of distance. Ariel's about 660 feet out right now ... so that's about a -66 to a Perception check. And that's before you factor in the smoke itself, which is about a -4 to a Perception check. Yes, you're not blinded because you're well outside any smoke, but I don't think with those penalties you'll be making a roll which is going to result in much more than "I see a blurry red dot take a glide somewhere near the West Gate."

 

I'd like to burn that AP on trying to make my save - coughing interrupts singing!

 

Okay, roll 2d6, best result is applied to your Fort save.

 

Possibly pointless roll activate!

Ah well, barbecued alive - a good death.

 

So that brings your Fort total up to 21, by applying 3 to his Fort save of 18 ...

...Nope. Evelios is still down demonstrating to the kiddies why it's important not to smoke.

 

Well, at least that makes my actions this round extremely easy to figure out. I'll also try to get something IC up tomorrow, I think my blanket "BUT FINALS AND MUH STAYCATION" excuse is no longer valid.

 

Yul Brynner impression?

 

Of course, I've been perfecting my now-flawless Cajun accent.

... Which actually gives me an idea for said update. Neat.

 

Smoke is DC 15. With a 21, why is Evelios choking and gasping?

 

Smoke is 1d20+5. We reversed the way saves work, remember? The total the smoke got for its "attack" roll was higher than 21.

EDIT: This was why I was a bit perplexed when you said APs apply to PC saving throws -- because PCs don't have a 1d20 roll to make anymore on saves, they just have static Fort/Ref/Will scores that monsters/spells/effects roll against. I had thought APs could only be applied to checks where a 1d20 roll was required; we did have one discussion with Ramza, waaayy back, on how Fascinate/Suggestion works into it, but that's about as far as it went IIRC.

On the other hand, APs do have to count in some mathematical way, so I thought to let Ramza roll best of 2d6 and add it to his static score for the purpose of that particular save. Hence: Fort save = 18 + 3 [AP] = 21. This I think does balance the factors; the only other way I can think of is to allow someone to put an AP as best of 2d6 to subtract from a spell/monster/effect roll made against them.

One might add it's also a retrospective addition, which wouldn't ordinarily be a cool thing to do...next time perhaps I should just ask if people want to reserve an AP against any saving throws that might crop up against them during the round or something.

This does mean there's a chance of wasting an AP that otherwise would not have changed the result (fail or save) or could have been used on something else during the round, but the alternative is what we've got now: the benefit of hindsight to know precisely when you should or shouldn't apply an AP. Hmmm.

 

And where is this listed? None of the roll results are mentioned anywhere in any post you have made within the last 48 hours. I could search the past 2000 rolls of invisible castle, but I have no idea what I'm looking for. Knowing that the smoke rolled a natural 20 would be useful for Ramza, because there's no way he can roll a 7 on a six-sided die using conventional geometry, and thus the AP was completely wasted. Similarly, I don't know if Skadi should bother with an AP or not against the breath weapon because I don't know what the target number was for her Reflex. I suspect the roll was 1d20 + 19 or +20 against her Reflex of 21, and is thus probably not worth the AP unless he rolled a 6 or lower.

You said "save of 18" so I assumed the smoke had rolled 1d20 (13) + 5, making it just barely a hit, and thus any AP result would be enough.

 

While we're on the subject, what exactly can you do while choking and coughing? I assume it just stops verbal stuff, and you can still move around.

 

As you wish: http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/4058185/

In order: Zanaek, Skadi, Evelios, Mazarun.

 

Does the order persist for Dragon Breath as well?

 

See my edits above on whether you ought to know the number you're trying to reach ... I'm really not decided on that. (Hence also my editing out that it was a natural 20, though the rolls show that anyway and it's a moot point now.)

Out of fairness, if Ramza does feel hard done by that he spent an AP on a roll where it wouldn't make a difference he can have it back, but I might again underline that being able to spend APs after an event and not before seems to me to carry a bonus to the player in that he knows whether or not he needs to use it. An AP spent before a roll -- which is the usual use we've run with -- carries a chance of it being needed. You don't know whether success or failure is guaranteed. Anyhow...

As to what exactly smoke does: well, SRD says you "spend the round choking and coughing". I take that as "spend the round" doing nothing but choking and coughing. And the last time this happened to the party -- way back in the Marauder Attack when there was smoke in the road cut -- we treated it as a straight matter of being taken out for the round, can't do anything else, not even move.

I would've thought if you are able to move, it wouldn't be at full speed, and I honestly don't think we should mess with the rules on this one. One round taken out for one character is not that bad, not even now. Anyone aware of the rules on dragonbreath more or less knows you ain't getting breathed on again next round no matter what happens.

 

Yes. In order, Zanaek, Skadi, Evelios, Mazarun.

 

What's the smoke situation like under the archway? Looks like there's less there, since there's no fire.

 

Well, the wooden doors that formed the gates of Brindol are burning within it, lying on the ground -- but there's nowhere near as much smoke. Clear enough for the smoke effect not to apply.

 

From the SRD, "You can declare the use of 1 action point to alter a d20 roll after the roll is made, but only before the GM reveals the result of that roll."

Normally when you make a saving throw you know if what you rolled is high or low. If I rolled a natural 1 or 2, I wouldn't bother with an AP because it means you're basically hosed (wouldn't bother with a high number either because you basically already succeeded). If I rolled a middle of the road number like a 9 or 13, then I'd go for it.

 

All right. Given that rule, Ramza should get his AP back either way, so it's refunded.

Best workaround I can think of is that when I do a monster/spell/effect against a save score, I just roll and reveal the d20 score without showing the modifiers that apply to it, since that would indicate the "result of that roll". Seems to me the AP rule as expressed is intended at offsetting a crappy d20 roll, not a crappy score as such, since you don't get to apply the AP after the result is known, only after the dice roll is known.

 

Pfft... whoever wrote the rule on Smoke never inhaled it before or had bronchitis. You *can* move while choking and coughing. Anywho.... you can't choke and cough if you're not breathing it in.


So.... what if we held our breath and moved away from the smoke?

 

Sounds good. Zanaek can spend an AP to free himself from the smoke, then we can haul west into the gated area.

 

If Zanaek uses an AP, he makes the smoke save. If he does, it means he gets a round of actions, so it probably comes to the same thing anyway. Strictly speaking, by the rules as written, you can't actually hold your breath unless you have no air to breathe, but that's a bit dysfunctional.

 

Well, remember a combat round represents six seconds of real time, and the presumption is you're running into some really heavy smoke when that DC applies. So I could see being doubled over for a few seconds.