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OOC A Tide of Discussion: the d20 ToF OOC thread

Discussion in 'Role Playing Resource' started by Saintheart, Oct 15, 2012.

Moderators: Penguinator, Ramza
  1. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Maz, Ragnar and William are all missing Shield of Faith for some reason.
  2. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    That's odd, I thought I'd put that on all party members. Fair enough, that'll be incorporated into calcs this round.
  3. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Hold up on the update, change of information means a change in plans.
  4. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Also, can you tell us what we're looking at here? There is an annoyingly nondistinct blob of goblinoids. At least weapon and armor type would be nice so we can make a decent estimate as to what they do.
  5. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    On the ground, you're looking at a group composed solely of hobgoblins. Of them, only two appear to have splint mail and the others are dressed in chain shirts. In the centre, three are holding chains of some kind; another three, two-handed swords; three more have what look like spears with ropes trailing from them, and the last three have no weapons in hand. William's spell took out the front nine closest to the party. On the manticores you've got robed hobgoblins. And those on the ground are moving relatively quickly.

    EDIT: Skadi due to her past would say the spears with trailing ropes have a strong resemblance to harpoons she's seen on whalers.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jul 18, 2013
  6. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Yeah, with only nine mooks dropped on the opening barrage, I'm not going to give them the initiative without Evelios at least attempting a spell in return. I do not want 18 stronger-than-average foes to have free reign.
  7. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Especially if they're plotting something goofy with harpoons or spiked chains.
  8. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Maybe you could leave that decision up to, I dunno, Ramza, perhaps?
  9. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    I am. I just don't want you to update before he makes a decision.

    This is one of those "the battle plan has made first contact with the enemy" moments that requires reconsidering moves.
    Last edited by LightWarden, Jul 18, 2013
  10. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 6
    @Saintheart do I have line of sight or do I need to get airborne if I want to cast something at the mob?
  11. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    There's no line of sight, mainly because there's this very large cleric blocking the tunnel through which you could otherwise see...
  12. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 6
    Alright, then I'd like to fly into the air 15 feet - which I think should be sufficient given how the embiggening spell works - and cast Confusion targeted at G-14. I'll burn an AP to hold onto the slot.

    Since I have Melodic Casting, I should also be able to maintain my singing, which I will.
  13. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    All right, noted; I've made the spell attack rolls, so I'll update from here on taking those into account.
  14. CmdrMitthrawnuruodo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 1, 2000
    star 6
    Gonna cast Summon Hound Archon and have him help Skadi hold the line. I'll instruct him to obey her commands if that is possible for her.


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  15. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    Mitth, I won't hold you to that course given you don't act until after the update I've given.

    Anyway, update is up. Few things to note.

    (1) Yes, this is legal to the best of my ability and Skadi is down and dying at least for the next few seconds. I've spent literally eight or so hours doing this update (EDIT: on and off, not straight, obviously), going through everything twice to see if I'd missed anything and applying every benefit I could think of in your characters' favour. I also looked in every case to see if an AP spent would change the results, and where it could (in Skadi's case in particular) I rolled, but the dice were against you guys this round.

    (2) The spears are functionally no different to harpoons in that it takes a full round action to remove one if it's lodged in, and without a DC 15 Heal check the harpoon does as much hitpoint damage coming out as it did going in. William being hit with two of them is also legal due to a combination of Ehlonna's Quiver and Quick Draw. One of those hits was a crit.

    (3) William's movement is that low because cumulative movement reducers -- i.e. reduction from entanglement due to a tanglefoot bag and reduction from being harpooned -- stack, thus cutting his movement rate to 25%. Fortunately he was cruising at 45 feet above the ground rather than 30 feet, so the throwers can't pull on the ropes to stop him moving. Ariel and Ragnar were also pretty fortunate in that while someone did throw from a 30 foot range at them, the harpoons didn't lodge -- in Ragnar's case because he spent an AP to stop it happening. Otherwise they'd be looking at opposed STR checks to avoid being pulled off the wall.

    (4) Skadi getting her magical defences knocked off her without a Dispel Magic spell is also legal. Look up Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Protection. So is her getting knocked down: Dungeoncrasher and Shock Trooper. So is the apparent second swag of attacks on her: full attack from said Dungeoncrasher who had the benefit of White Raven Tactics. The chain fighter and the initiator of said White Raven Tactics are both down and dead from Corrath who 5-foot stepped during her full attack, and not shown on the map.

    (5) Yes, five people failed their saves for Confusion. The one who got an "act normally" result this round was the crusader that enabled the White Raven Tactics strike; the other (EDIT THE SECOND: the other crusader, that is) is babbling incoherently.

    (6) EDIT THE THIRD: For what it's worth, William also has to pass two Concentration checks (DC 15) if he wants to cast, too, not that I imagine that'll be a problem - one from the Harpoon, one from the Tanglefoot Bag.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jul 20, 2013
  16. Ktala Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2002
    star 6
    Oh SNAP!!

    Question...is Ariel still able to fly ok?

    ***EDIT***
    NEVER MIND...saw my answer!!!

    she is entangled...

    okay.....
    Last edited by Ktala, Jul 20, 2013
  17. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    She can, but the distance she can go is reduced. You'll find a table that reflects her movement speed at the bottom of the update -- in brief, 40 feet per round. She's 30 feet off the ground standing on the Brindol battlements right now.

    EDIT: Also note that entanglement means she can't charge or run, i.e. you can still move in on an opponent and attack, but your usual trick of charging with a dive attack is shut down while you've still got a Tanglefoot Bag's goo all over you.

    EDIT THE SECOND: No, this isn't like Rhest where you nailed a dragon to the floor. That dragon failed its Reflex check; you (fortunately) did not, so you can still move and fly, it's just you can't do so quite as easily.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jul 20, 2013
  18. Ktala Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2002
    star 6
    Gotcha. Thanks.
    Plotting and planning now....

    ;)
  19. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 6
    Well, we had a good run.

    [IMG]
  20. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Yo, this is why you generally don't put eighteen reasonably strong enemies on the same initiative count, especially when you're using enemies to boostrap each other into higher initiative counts in the game of Rocket Tag: Caster Edition. Also why direct damage spells (and those who use them) are totally trash.

    And also why Invisible Castle has a "sign in" feature so we can look at rolls more easily to see what happened. Please post your rolls.

    -31 isn't dying, it's dead (since it's greater than -1/4 of her HP (-28)). Fortunately, I think there was probably a rules error somewhere, and also I have a cunning plan. Did the enemy roll a natural 20 for that attack that pierced her protection? I'm pretty sure the answer was "no" since it wasn't a crit. If so, time to proceed with the plan plan! Skadi spends an AP to emulate a feat: Martial Study, picking up the no-prerequisite Wall of Blades from the Iron Heart school. As an immediate action, Skadi makes an attack roll of 1d20+26 since Haste is still up and uses it as her AC vs. the Pierce Magical Protection. Wall of Blades can be activated after you learn the results of an attack, so this is legal. Her AC vs. the attack is now 40, and thus she still has her defenses vs. the ensuing cluster.

    It's Retcon time.

    Other points of clarification:
    -Dispel Magic: I'm not entirely sure how you managed to strip the invisibility off of William, considering AoE invisibility goes for the highest caster-level spells first, which would be Magic Weapon (CL 12 for +3) and Shield of Faith (CL 12 for +4)
    -If the hobgoblins are using scrolls, the scroll caster level is probably capped somewhere around +5, against a DC of 21 to 23, requiring a 16 or higher.
    -It requires a concentration check to cast spells while on a moving mount, and manticores are really terrible fliers who have to fly half their speed each round or drop like bricks
    -Flame shield doesn't just halve fire/cold damage, it does 1d6+CL cold/fire damage to anyone who hits you in melee. So the dudes dogpiling Skadi probably had another thing coming.
    -Pierce Magical Protection requires a standard action, and thus chain dude needed a move action to close in. Even with a reach weapon, that seems a little far unless all of these guys are hasted or something (considering one of them tower dived the back rank, the answer is "probably").
    -Tanglefoot bags wear off in 2d4 rounds, so that should probably be listed somewhere.
  21. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Ktala and Penguinator, we desperately need you guys to charge the casters closest to you so they can't mess this up further. Both of them are within a single movement of each of you, so you can fly in, gank the caster for 70+ damage, and fly back. In fact, you can spend an AP to emulate Cleave, thus allowing you to gank the caster and the manticore mount with one charge before flying back to the wall.
  22. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    How the heck did they hit Ariel with a tanglefoot bag anyway? Tanglefoot bags have a 10 ft range increment and 50 ft range max as a thrown object, she was something like 30 or 40 back and off the ground, and has a ridiculous touch AC.
  23. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Also, Shock Trooper + Dungeon Crasher doesn't mean Skadi is prone. Dungeon Crasher only does damage when you hit a wall, Shock Trooper only allows a trip attempt when you push a foe into another foe (and requires a successful trip attempt to boot). There are no other people in tunnel that Skadi could have collided with other than Corrath, and I don't think the guy was that much of a psychic.
  24. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    With all due respect, no, I'm not retconning, and no, I'm not posting my rolls. I've spent enough time on one round of actions and checking for one week, and we're moving on. Couple of items--

    (1) Martial Study won't help, mainly because the AP was spent on the opposed STR check to resist the Bull Rush that sent Skadi into a wall. More on that later. I am happy to alter things slightly so Skadi is not past the death point due to using Wall of Blades on the Crusader's attack prior to that, but not otherwise.
    (2) Dispel Magic: Area Dispel hit first, which didn't work against the higher level spells and got Greater Invisibility. Targeted Dispel second, which got Divine Protection and Shield of Faith as it panned out.
    (3) On Concentration: noted.
    (4) On Flame Shield: that, too, was taken into account on the numbers. In fact I saw it rather late and simply maxed out the available damage: 16 on each successful attack, so you had the benefit of that already.
    (5) Pierce Magical Protection: you'd probably be right to conclude Haste or Expeditious (and Inappropriately Named) Retreat was involved.
    (6) Tanglefoot Bags: I hadn't worked out duration, so in fairness we'll call that two rounds.
    (7) Ragnar can't emulate Cleave. He already spent his AP this round.
    (8) How Ariel got hit? True Strike. The "off the ground" is irrelevant because we've been ignoring Pythagoras for five years or so, in many cases in favour of the party, so I'm not reinstituting it now.
    (9) Shock Trooper also has this thing called Directed Bull Rush. The -4 to AC from being prone also doesn't affect the outcome given the numbers involved.

    So, no. I'll pull Skadi's numbers up somewhat to avoid death, but that's about all the change I'm willing to make.

    And with all due respect, complaining about bootstrapping enemies into higher initiative counts is a bit rich when the party is using White Raven Tactics, delaying, readying to achieve much the same result on a continuing basis. It's also a bit rich given the party is carrying two NPCs and one player, without naming names, who might as well be an NPC for the frequency of posting that happens. It's also pretty damn rich considering the alternative, and precisely why I put things that way - fights literally taking months to finish as we work our way through individual initiative counts by players and opponents alike.

    I have retconned and retconned in the past in the party's favour. When further requests for retconning are accompanied by snarky remarks as to "goofy" tactics by the hobgoblins, languid presumptions there have been rules errors, not to mention assured comments that the first wave of hobgoblins can be dealt with with one spell, it doesn't exactly engender me towards being generous on that front. I don't think you quite realise how much time I spend on this thing, how much thought and work goes into these above and beyond reading the damn Red Hand of Doom sourcebook. I've worked for frigging weeks on these battles; I've tried to make them interesting; I've allowed you pretty solid characters and well above the normal set of resources for the party. I've not been capricious and you haven't suddenly faced 20th level wizards out of nowhere or sudden, arbitrary DM fiat "houserules". I don't believe I'm a killer DM and I haven't thrown you into the Tomb of Horrors.

    I am not going to become any those things, but I have also hit my limit for this round. The results stand - Rule 0. If any of you want to feel aggrieved and go complain somewhere that I'm an unfair DM or that I don't play by RAW, feel free - because I can't stop you, not because it's true. Hell, abandon the game if it bothers you that much, because I'm getting to the point where frankly I'm almost at that point too.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Jul 20, 2013
  25. LightWarden Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 11, 2001
    star 4
    Ok, so William's case was the low percentage corner case of seriously bad luck. Thank you for the clarification.

    Here's the sequence I'm confused about. As far as I can tell from the post, things went down in the following fashion:

    1) Chain spellbreaker charges in, hits Skadi for ok damage, also completely shuts down her defense.
    2) Dungeon Crasher comes charging in, hits a bull rush. Skadi completely bombs the opposed strength check, gets shoved back and into the wall via Shock Trooper, takes 8d6+3x Str damage.
    3) Crusader comes up and hits her with a pickaxe for damage.
    4) Crusader uses WRT to grant Dungeon Crasher an extra turn
    5) Dungeon Crasher wails away on Skadi, killing her
    6) Somewhere in here, Skadi ends up prone? If it's just from falling below 0 HP, that happens, but "So is her getting knocked down: Dungeoncrasher and Shock Trooper" implies to me that Dungeon Crasher tripped her, which I don't understand.

    She'd be spending an AP to block the chain spellbreaker's attack in part 1, thus preserving Skadi's AC, because "you lose all your defenses right as the enemy charges" is exactly the point where you throw on the brakes. She still gets knocked back into the wall by the Dungeon Crasher and takes ~40 damage, but has her AC at 28 vs. the Crusader and the WRT Dungeon Crasher's attacks, which cuts down the damage from "absolutely dead" to probably somewhere around half hp.
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