A Woman's view of Padme, Tragic figure, heroine, victim or something else.

This is a continuation of an issue that came up in another thread taking it hopelessly off topic.

Is Padme a tragic victim or is she a heroine, or ??

a couple of snippets to give you an idea, if anyone minds let me know, I am still new at this.

"How convenient, that once again, the woman pays the highest price of all. I'm not going to watch Episode III. I'm through with tragedy, even in the guise of entertainment."

" don't despise her, in fact, I don't like the fact she's going to be removed entirely from the picture because she becomes the ultimate victim. The victim that the story inevitably hinges around in some far off, distant way, like an old book on a shelf that we forget about after we've read it, and never mention again but briefly in passing. Episode III will be a man's movie. Some women will like it for its romantic tragedy, but a woman with some fight in her will not. The guys will love it. I use to love these films, but the more I think about what happens to Padme, the more disgusted it makes me." Undomiel

'She is Queen Irgraine, she is Gueneviere, she is every great heroine in all of literature. Her fault is that she falls in love with a flawed man. She allows herself to feel, and to be loved when she should have remained a boring politician. She finally discovers who she really is, and then her husband, her way of life, are taken away from her forever. Is it fair that she dies? Personally I think it will be her choice to die, she'll fold in upon herself until there's nothing left. PadmeLeiaJaina

Yes she is tragic. She does her duty to the end and makes the supreme sacrifice in the name of protecting that which matters most. It is not fair that Anakin gets a redemption scene at the end and she doesn't but that is how it works sometimes. Life doesn't always work out nice and pretty here in the real world either. Everyone over the age of 12 knows that.

She is the classic tragic figure, found through out literature, and mythology. That does not make her a victim. She new what she was going into. She loved her husband more than anything, yet in the end she did her duty, and did what she had to do. She put the needs of others, especially her children and the rest of the galaxy above her own. In a way that makes her a hero. It is not an easy thing to do. "IamZam

Discuss amongst yourselves, but lets play nice m'kay.

 

I agree. She's an important character in the star wars saga. Can't wait for ep3... Its going to be soo sad. But anyways... If natalie can do it...I can count on her.

 

Here's the whole conversation that took place on a different board:

IamZam says:

Actually I think he knew she cared, even loved, she just wouldn't allow it to procede.

She is not responsible for his downfall, he made those choices all on his own, but she is defnitely not an inocent victim as she jumped into this relationship feet first, eyes wide shut. She more than anyone knew what he was capable of, and yet decided she coudnt' deny her feelings anymore. What did it get her, she lost her husband her children and most of what she cared for believed in.

He would most likely have acted the same if she had relented then. As that was his nature.. He loved her, but he also loved his mother and well, Oedipus anyone?? (sorry). And she never exactly discouraged his rule breaking. She knew how important his mother was too him, and when Mace ordered him to stay it was her idea to go to Geonosis.

So from a certain point of view they kinda led each other down the dark path. But ulitmately each is responsible for thier own choices, and each will pay the price.
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Undomiel says,

How convenient, that once again, the woman pays the highest price of all. I'm not going to watch Episode III. I'm through with tragedy, even in the guise of entertainment.


"These five words in my head, scream, "ARE WE HAVING FUN YET?!" -- Nickelback, How You Remind Me -
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IamZam says,

I think Anakin paid a pretty steep price also. Its not like he forced her into anything. Nobody forces her in to anything. She suffered because of her choices, that fact that she is a woman is irrelevant. She knew better than anyone else exactly what kind of person he was, and yet she jumped in eyes wide shut. She is responsible for her choices.

Actually marrying and loving her was part of his ride to the dark side. You saw how nuts he went when she fell out of the transport.

A Jedi is supposed to be unattached and beable to put the good of the whole above the good of the few or the one. That's not easy to do, when you are forced to make decisions that go against your personal desire. It is his attachment and problems with letting go that will be part of his downfall. His love for his wife will most likely be used as a weapon against him.
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Undomiel says,

Perhaps you are just young or a male? Well whatever the case may be, she loses her children and her life many years before Anakin loses his. He spends the next 30 years or so literally doing whatever the hades he wants and Padme's six feet under. He makes amends with his children. Where's their mother?!!! In the end only Anakin is rescurrected, given a sort of sainthood and gets to go to the happy afterlife with who? Where's Padme? Uh yeah. Where's her resolution? There isn't one. When and if, GL finally inserts Padme into the closing scene of RotJ, I will have already lost interest because of the horrid treatment Padme receives in the story. She's like the typical female martyr, a too oft repeated tragedy.

"These five words in my head, scream, 'ARE WE HAVING FUN YET!?'" -- Nickelback, How You Remind ME------------------------------------------

IamZam says,

Actually Undomiel I am neither very young, nor am I male. At least not the last time I checked. I am anything but.

I am in my thirties, I am a single mother and I have dealth with Anakin-y guys first hand. My ex is a prime example. I refuse to be seen as a victim. I will keep this short as this isnt' the place to get into this. But I am tired of Women who get themselves into these situations crying poor me. I knew what he was, and I chose to get involved. I got hurt, I have no one to blame. I rose above my situation. IF you want more details there is a link in my profile.. Please don't make assumptions. I assume nothing about you, other than what you tell me. IF you want to discuss this further you can PM me, or AIM me.

AS for resolution, the series isn

 

Thanks for copying that. I wasn't sure how much to copy over. I didn't want it to get too long.. .

 

Way over the top for me, it's just a movie.

She's gonna save Luke and Leia somehow from the evil Vader. Seems like a fitting role no?

 

"It is not fair that Anakin gets a redemption scene at the end and she doesn't but that is how it works sometimes."

Maybe someone knows something that I don't but, why does Padme need redeeming...

I don't think she has done anything wrong. She makes some bad choices...but the only one that pays for those choices is her.

 

Great thread. Although I am male, and I think I'm the ONLY male on the face of the planet that don't think Natalie Portman is the greatest thing walking, I'd like to say that I love her character. She's very three dimensional. Let's skip aside some acting issues and scripting issues for a while, shall we?

In Episode I, she was like 14. A Queen of a planet being seized by a bunch of moronic goons I'd like to punch in the face with a brick. Each of them. So, she escapes her planet in hopes of meeting with the senate on Coruscant. But she knows her journey there will be perilous; but she goes anyway, just to maybe have this threat eradicated.

Well, so they have to land on Tatooine in an emergency land. She doesn't agree with Qui-Gon Jinn and well, she doesn't trust anyone at this point, so to make sure things go okay on Tatooine, she acts as a handmaiden to oversee Qui-Gon's doings.

So, she meets up with Anakin, which will eventually be the main cause of the crash of the Republic and the rise of the Empire. They meet up, watch Anakin podrace, get thier parts, and leave.

They arrive on Coruscant. After being shot at, almost blown up on an unstable ship, and being tracked by a Sith that closely resembles a devil, she is bickered at and pretty much denied in the senate main audience chamber.

Knowing that the Republic is in shambles, and with no hope of them getting the TF off Naboo, she creates one final stand to regain her planet back from greed and a hidden evil. She does so, but casualties were high. Nevertheless, she done her duty, and saved her planet.

Fast forward ten years. Now a senator under constant threat by bounty hunters, Padme Amidala comes in contact with someone that is in her heart, but at the same time, shadowed. I think Padme KNOWS she loves Anakin, but her job and future shouldn't be interrupted by love. So when something comes up and she is stuck with Anakin, she begins to dig through her feelings, and by the time they are about to die, she finally realizes her true feelings for this charming, yet disturbed, Jedi named Anakin Skywalker. But, they survive, and given this new chance at a new life, they wed. Anyone would.

Now, Episode III isn't here yet, but we know, sadly, what must happen. Padme will either have to die, or somehow escape and hide until she does die. She has to separate from her love. She has to leave life at such a young age. In Episode II, she is 24. Episode III takes places about 2 years afterwards, so she must be around 26, maybe 27 in Episode III. She will die before she is 30.

I don't know about anyone else, but people- this is true storytelling at its finest. I have became attached to Padme's character. She is easy to admire. Not in a "ooo man I think Padme is HOT" admiration, but just an admiration of her story, and her place in the Star Wars saga. She is truly the tragic figure of the movies besides Anakin, of course.

I think when Padme leaves us in Episode III, only then will we truly understand that Lucas done it right. He played his ballgame right. Us, as an audience, may look at his ballgame as a losing bout, but in the final inning, we will only then, truly understand, what Lucas wants to show.

And personally, I cannot wait. Can you?

 

She doesn't in the same sense that Anakin does.

That is the point. Neither of them is a victim. They both made choices. But Anakin got to live and make peace with his son, before he died. We still don't know Padme's ultimate fate other than she paid for her love of Anakin with the ultimate sacrifice.

She made some very bad decisions, but by ultimately doing her duty, which in my opinion makes her a very strong woman despite everything, she redeems herself by giving up everything to make sure her children have a chance and to protect the galaxy. Her biggest crime was falling in love with the wrong man. Something that happens over and over again in mythology, because it happens over and over again in real life.

 

IamZam,

Everyone over the age of 12 knows life isn't fair, HOWEVER, everyone over the age of 12 has a responsibility to speak up when it's required, as well. And I feel this is one of those moments.

For example, we have no idea how horrible it must be for the Ethiopian children to be born into abject poverty and disease, starvation, etc. We think we are having a very bad day when we can't go see AotC for the 5th time because our kids or parents may have first priority on the expenses involved. This is where an issue such as Padmes' death and loss of her children, becomes more foggy. People who haven't experienced that kind of trauma would be totally clueless on how to feel about her situation. A man can't begin to understand the bond between a mother and her children, just as a woman can't begin to understand the bond between a father and his children. We have no common ground in these matters. We have no idea how the other feels because we can't hop inside them and experience their pain just long enough to say, "Wow, I see where you're coming from." We have to base it on our life experiences.

Sadly, issues like those Padme will soon be facing are going to be unfathomable to some and remarkably disheartening to others. I will be one of those who has experienced Padme's situation closely enough to understand it and for that reason, for my own peace of mind, I will not be watching it. That'd more akin to torture for me. I've been dead once already, driven to the brink of insanity and death by a handful of cruel individuals, who to this day, are not likely to fathom how horrible it was or how badly they would feel were the shoe on the their foot instead. I had to forgive them and it was HARD to do. I still suffer to this day from the results of that deathly episode. I've had severe physical problems since that time, including breast cancer, and all the related tragedy that entails -- loss of a major body part [masectomy] related to my sexual identity as a woman and a human being, chemotherapy, chronic fatigue syndrome, and the list goes on. I've lost friends because of my ailments, love because of my ailments, viability as a worker in society, and a host of other devastating trials. This is my cross to bear in life, I KNOW THAT!!! I'm not 12, but I don't have to like it. Thusly, I will also be avoiding watching the type of victimization Padme has to endure, even if, as you say, it was all her idea in the first place.

I realize she gives up her own children to save their lives, but why did it have to get to that point? And then to still end up dead herself, makes me about as angry as when M'lady DeWinters is executed in the newer version of The Three Musketeers. Resolution? Absolution? Sigh. GL could've given Padme an escape, he honestly could have. Poor brave Padme. Soon forgotten by ANH and never mentioned again till RotJ, "She was sad." Uhh, yeah, I guess so.


-Undomiel

 

Poor brave Padme. Soon forgotten by ANH and never mentioned again till RotJ, "She was sad." Uhh, yeah, I guess so.

Where would you put her in the OT? Luke and Leia are an extension of Padme, they carry the torch when she dies. When Vader chooses to save Luke do you think that part of the reason is to make up for letting Padme die? Part of the reason he loves Luke is because he's a representation of Anakin and Padme's love.

Is she a tragic character? Yes. Anakin's turn wouldn't be tragic if at the end he winds up with his wife and kids as one big happy family. Ask any mother or father out there this question: "Would you rather see yourself have a good life, or your children?" Nine out of ten would say their kids.

Padme is critical to the life of Anakin Skywalker. He "dies" in Episode III. So does she. She gets a mention in ROTJ, coincidentally the same movie that Anakin is resurrected by Luke.

 

Never once does the name of Padme escape Vader's lips, not even once he becomes Anakin Skywalker again. He never even mentions her as his wife, or the mother of his children, not even while speaking with Luke in his final moments. She's forgotten. Dead. GL never considered it, I guess. Not that he wouldn't have, had he known at the time that Padme would BECOME a celluloid reality.

Anakin isn't dead. He goes on a killing binge. I doubt honorable mention of Padme in RotJ makes up for the fact we never see or hear about her again until then, and only for a few moments. But wow, we sure get to learn more about Anakin, don't we. Eh, who's Padme, just some old book on a shelf, forgotten in time.

-Undomiel

 

She got to that point when she agreed to marry a man who slaughtered an entire village out of rage.

I have never dealt with the issues you have dealt with and would never presume to know how you feel. However, I did spend 10 years in a very bad relationship with a man who liked drinking enough to risk his life for a drink, and who thought nothing of comming home at 3 am and using me as a punching bag both verbally and physically. I had to go to the court system to get him out of my house, and I still have to deal with him on a daily basis. I have have been poor enough to qualify for food stamps, and I managed to put my self thru school and get a full time job with potential inspite of it all. I also deal daily with an illness that it quite stigmatized among much of society. But I don't let that be an excuse for anything.

I chose to get involved with my ex. I saw signs long before I got pregnant that he wasn't a good choice, but I loved him and I thought I could deal with it , that I would be enough to fix him and make things right. Well I was wrong, almost dead wrong.

Her ability to do the right thing in the end no matter how painful makes her someone to admire in my book, not pity.

 

Hmmmm, this one's a real THINKER.... hard to put into words. Maybe it's because some of us feel we've been down that same path... had men in our lives (maybe not AS fractured as Anakin but close) and thought we could "save them".. or we fell in love with what we saw as apposed to what was really there... (Can't tell ol' Darth Breezy's been down THIS particular garden path before!). I think Padme' WILL make the ultimate sacrifice (even possibly surviving but I doubt it.... this is a "heroes" epic)... in one form or perhaps many... not only allowing her children to be taken but sacrificing herself in another significant way.... I have a funny feeling about that "shadow" on Tatooien (Yes, I know, mass other thread BUT still.. in some instances it looks like Vader is holding her... this happens just before Shmi dies in Ani's Arms..... could be.....)
Any way it turns out, I'm enhoying the journey as much as the outcome!

 

She's a tragic heroine victim, IMO.


Lol, sorry had to do it.

 

GL never considered it, I guess. Not that he wouldn't have, had he known at the time that Padme would BECOME a celluloid reality.

There ya go. You just answered yourself. Come on, what did you want Lucas to have enough foresight to forsee that he would have a PT, the woman's name would be Padme and she would die? This from a man who didn't even decide to make Vader=Anakin until ESB.

Sometimes you people expcet too much from the man.

 

Has anyone here seen "A Knight's Tale"? In the film, the heroine who is being courted by just about every eligble male knight, frequently hears how this knight or that one will dedicate his winning the jousting tournament to her. In her name, this violence is commited against other men. She hates the entire thing. One gentleman comes along and doesn't dedicate his violence to her but admires her greatly and lets her know....repeatedly. She likes this. He isn't using his own vain attempts at massaging his ego in the jousting matches, as a reason to woo her or as if the love of her has driven him to do violence to other people for her glory.

Now let's compare. Vader, if indeed Padme's passing has any effect on Anakin's turning to the dark side, will most likely use this excuse for his anger, killing others in Padme's name, just as he wiped out the Tuskens in Shmi's name. When the truth is, he forgets her almost as soon as she is dead and would only be using her as an excuse to kill people, just based on the information in the movies following Episode III.

It's just sad, the whole thing is sad.

-Undomiel

 

I personally believe the lack of any mention of Padme (except by Leia in ROTJ, and even then not by name) is a major strike against the OT. To go from being a major character in the PT to virtually no mention in the OT is a problem.

 

Are you implying that Lucas isnt handling this right?

 

KnightWriter,

Thank you! That's one of things I'm fussin' bout.

 

There's nothing Lucas can do about it now, short of putting some new scenes in the OT that deal with Padme. He struggled with the backstory of the Skywalker's mother during the making of ROTJ and ultimately did a subpar job with it.

All that can be done now is a good resolution in Episode III that helps explain things. Otherwise, it's a problem that's hard for me to overlook.

 

I'd say it will all be okay.

 

Let's not forget- "He's more machine now than man, twisted and evil." There is real conflict going on in Anakin/Vaders head. We don't hear about Padme in the OT because that's what the PT is for. By Lucas telling us about her, and showing us how much the 2 characters love each other, we are able to read new depth into the OT without her being mentioned.

Yes Anakin doesn't mention Padme at the end of ROTJ, because he only has a few breaths left in him. He saves them for his son. His son's love saved him. I suppose if he had a few more breaths in his body, and if the DEATH STAR WASN'T ABOUT TO EXPLODE, he might have mentioned something about Padme, but time was of the essence, and his had expired. I think if they did Digitally add Padme in at the end of ROTJ it would be fitting. I wouldn't think it was a cheap cop-out either- but a wonderful conclusion for the story arch.

 

I look at SW as a play with two parts and three acts in each part. There was no need to mention her name and these are really two self-contained stories. I do not think that this is a major plot hole and what will anybody do about it anyway.

 

Uhm, yeah, if the person I loved for years ended up in a tragic situation, ESPECIALLY after MARRYING her and having KIDS with her...yes, I don't think I'd want to talk about it either.

 

The story could have been deeper if Padme's character had been at least somewhat developed in the OT. Luke could have picked up where Padme and Obi-Wan left off, trying to turn Anakin back from the dark side. Instead of her living on noticeably in her children, she seems to become a non-entity. It would have been nice to see Obi-Wan remark in ANH how much Leia resembled Padme in some ways (either to himself or out loud). That's just an example, but in the end, things aren't what they might have been.

There was no need to mention her name and these are really two self-contained stories

I completely disagree. I see it as one story and one saga.