Abortion Laws, Pro Life or Pro Chice?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by sultan_of_agrabah, Jun 7, 2002.

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  1. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Right ... and when a person is committed, any person off the street can violate them in any way they want?

    Not in any way they want, and not any person, but someone deemed "qualified" may violate them using any means "necessary" if it is classified as "treatment". That includes things like electric shock therapy in psychiatry; in the name of "protecting the fetus", we could have forced pelvics, amniocentesis, ultrasounds, chorionic villus sampling...it goes on. Logically, you can't claim that one argument is any different from the other. The semantics of the language are irrelevant because the degree of violation would be the same. In the abortion example, the woman would be of sound mind and body, and willingly saying "No". This is coersion.

    I don't think so... The 4th Amendment protects you from government intervention; a host of other laws protect you from private citizens.

    I will say this again: outlawing abortion will result in a legal nullification of a pregnant woman's fourth amendment rights. Not totally, but a "special exception" would be needed. If the government is going to step in against the wishes of a woman of sound mind and body and invade her person against her will, her fourth amendment rights at the very least have to be modified. Any such "double standard" will be very difficult to justify legally.

    Womberty, the most that will happen in this country will be a very tightly-worded ban on late-term elective abortion.

    Peace,

    V-03
  2. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Vaderize, that is the least that will happen, and I expect it to happen in the next two years. I think the their is a very good chance of getting abortion illegal by at least viability and I would not doubt that it would be totally illegal by the end of my life (assuming I live a normal life-span, of course).

    I think you overestimate your support. Oce abortion in some cases starts to become restricted, it will snowball. The pro-abortion lobby knows this, and that is why they fight so hard to protect partial-birth abortion.
  3. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I think you overestimate your support. Oce abortion in some cases starts to become restricted, it will snowball. The pro-abortion lobby knows this, and that is why they fight so hard to protect partial-birth abortion.


    No, the pro-abortion lobby, in my view fights so hard because they don't want people like pro-lifers telling other people (women) what to do.
  4. TheScarletBanner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    It can generally be said of modern society that it becomes more rational and reasonable as time goes on. Not superstitious and overly-moralistic; that happens in stagnating societies.

    That's why prior to Roe v. Wade, abortion was illegal. Now it's legal, I can only see the restrictions on it becoming looser, not more stringent.

    Pro-lifers are fighting a losing battle.

    - Scarlet.
  5. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Vaderize, that is the least that will happen, and I expect it to happen in the next two years. I think the their is a very good chance of getting abortion illegal by at least viability and I would not doubt that it would be totally illegal by the end of my life (assuming I live a normal life-span, of course).

    I have to respectfully disagree with you here. There will be a lot of opposition to this; it's just not seen at the moment because the terrorism war has overshadowed domestic policy issues. Bush has about a year with his congress, before campaigning for the nexgt election starts. This is not as high a priority as you may think, and people will fight it (see below).

    I think you overestimate your support.

    Actually, you overestimate yours. A greater than 50% majority in this country support abortion rights; that margin is much lower for late-term abortions, you are correct there. The difference between the two camps is that pro-lifers tend to be a lot more vocal than pro-choicers, and more able to polarize their voting base. The country is close to even on this one, with a slight pro-choice majority. Also, keep in mind that many against abortion vote solely on this issue, while many for abortion rights vote on other issues, occassionally putting their convictions aside for other issues (national security, etc).

    Oce abortion in some cases starts to become restricted, it will snowball.

    I have to respectfully disagree with you here. The reason there hasn't been much movement from either camp on this issue is that there hasn't been much movement politically at all. Abortion has remained legal with Reagan and a republican congress, it will remain so with Bush and a republican congress. The type of change you are talking about happens with solid senate majorities and a popular consensus in both the cities and the country; that doesn't exist here.

    People who are pro-choice are apathetic at the moment because they don't seriously see the right as threatened. The minute that changes, the temperature from the pro-choice camp will erupt with more than enough force to melt your "snowball". At the very least, the democrats would filibuster an all-encompassing abortion law, which at this time would not be legal anyway (see below again)

    The pro-abortion lobby knows this, and that is why they fight so hard to protect partial-birth abortion.

    This is also incorrect. The most that would ever happen with a Roe turnaround is a reverting to the states. A lot of them would keep it legal. The government cannot outlaw abortion in a blanket manner. The reason the pro-choice lobby fights partial-birth abortion law is that they have generally in the past been written in such a way that criminalizes all abortion and makes no exception for the life of the mother. The court struck down nebraska's law for just that reason. The anti-abortion lobby has tried to use this issue to attack all abortion, and that is why late-term abortion remains legal. If they were to accept the fact that some elective abortion is always going to be legal at least in some states (ie moderate on the issue), then they would be much more likely to get their ban on late-term procedures passed.

    By clinging to their "all illegal" philosophy, they have guaranteed an equal and opposite reaction. The government has enough checks and balances to serve middle-of-the-road views; outlawing it all will not occur short of a constitutional amendment. The minute it looks like it is going to swing radically either way, expect a huge, huge war on the political battlefield. Those for abortion-rights are neither impotent, powerless, or stupid-they are just not as oftentimes hysterical or vocal as the anti-abortion camp.

    If a supreme court seat opens up soon, you will see exactly what I mean.

    As far as viability goes, this will be fought as a point of law as well, since viability always changes. While I agree that the viability point is a good measure, it will be fought just for that reason. But th
  6. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Nice post, and excellent points about Federal vs. State laws and courts on this issue.
  7. Kuna_Tiori Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2002
    star 4
    Rebecca191:
    But what about the fact that there is no heartbeat at conception? No brain activity? Would not a person lacking these things be considered dead?

    No, because independent life (like a fetus, as opposed to a stomach or a lung) has several definitions, one of which is a unique DNA sequence. I believe a zygote has exactly that. Therefore, it can be construed as "life".

    womberty:
    Now the government gets to decide which lives are expendable? What happened to everyone being equal??

    Anyone else you consider expendable? People who are too old? Too deformed?


    Old and deformed humans who are already born are entitled to human rights because they are already a human.

    "Clumps of cells" technically are human, but at the same time they're just clumps of cells. They don't get the same rights that a born human gets.

    Courtesy abortions? The government has no duty to provide people with a way out of the sticky situations they get themselves into.

    Yes, but they have a duty to allow people to get out of those sticky situations when the method is acceptable.

    So it all comes down to whether or not abortion is acceptable.

    Yeah, no one wants some stupid kid messing up their parents' lives.
    Better to just get rid of them and hope the parents learned their lesson, right?


    The thing is, a fetus is not really much of a human.

    There are things that humans can do. They can kill animals (those unprotected by the ESA or other legislation). They can destroy their own property, etc. etc.

    Fetuses...may be construed on a technical level as human life, but it's "humanness" is negligible.

    Consider this. If someone spits on the ground, they're throwing away their cells. If you step on the spittle, rubbing it into the dirt, technically you're physically assaulting someone else's cells. Would you be punished for it? No.

    Physiologically, a fetus is like a spittle. It grows, yes, but at the early stages it's worth little.

    It's when the fetus develops into at least a semblance of a human, that it deserves rights.

    Basically, what we have here is one scenario, where someone's condom busts, or someone got raped. Why should they have to carry a fetus they don't want?

    On the other is the cry of "murder!" on a mere clump of cells.

    It may be killing (I don't think it'd count as murder). But sometimes, killing is acceptable. It's that simple.
  8. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    You know to save a womans life I dont mind abortion too much. It still bothers me, but.....

    What gets me are these women who use abortion as birth control. I think a woman who continues using abortion as birth control should be fixed, so she cant have anymore babies. At least until she grows up and can handle the responsibility. Can pro-lifers and pro-choicers agree on this one? I dont know about pro-choicers but I am personally disgusted by those women who use it as birthcontrol.

    It might be their 4th amendment right, but my 2d amendment right says I have the right to bare arms, you don't see me going out buying AK-47's, M-16s, an M-2 tank and a F-15 either, because you have a right to do something doesn't mean you should take it to the extremes, and constantly having abortions is taking it to the extremes.
  9. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    What gets me are these women who use abortion as birth control. I think a woman who continues using abortion as birth control should be fixed, so she cant have anymore babies.

    I think you'd find very few women who would actively go out of their way to use abortion as their form of birth control. That is to say that they have become pregnant multiple times due to the fact they've engaged in sexual intercourse without any sort of protection and, once pregnant, have an abortion. The the next time they get pregnant (again without using protection) they go and have another abortion and so on.

    I believe that abortion should be a viable option to those people whose contraception fail. I definitely believe it should always remain an option, but I don't believe that it should be abused as a repeatedly used form of birth-control (even though it is technically birth-control) like the pill or condoms.


    Kithera
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Jediflyer - Don't be so literal! I was drawing an analogy to your claims about cells. :) I appreciate the difference between grass and a foetus, matey!

    What gets me are these women who use abortion as birth control.

    Such volumous ignorance, JediXen! How you possible came up with crap like that and maintain credibility here will be a mystery. How many women do you know who've had abortions? I mean really know, not "know of"? None? Thought not. In fact, can you supply actual proof of women like this? I mean proof that would hold up in court, not proof that would be handed out in a church.

    My ex- had an abortion before I was with her. It screwed her up badly, because she constantly had to rationalise the act. How can you imagine a woman would just sleep with whomever then have an abortion because it's more convenient that buying the pill? FFS, mate, think! It is NOT going to be an "easy" decision adopted by women with loose morals! It has to be a hard thing to do. I'm sorry if you think I'm being harsh here, but that is perhaps the most callous, cruel, un-empathetic and ill-informed remark I've seen on this entire thread.

    E_S
  11. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Such volumous ignorance, JediXen! How you possible came up with crap like that and maintain credibility here will be a mystery. How many women do you know who've had abortions? I mean really know, not "know of"? None? Thought not. In fact, can you supply actual proof of women like this? I mean proof that would hold up in court, not proof that would be handed out in a church.

    Thanks for the quick juding, as a matter of fact I know two women who had an abortion, thank you very GOD DAMN MUCH. One of them had two abortions and thought nothing of it, she was dating one of my friends in the Air Force. The other had an abortion 10 years before I met her when she was 16, and regrets the decision, she mourns the child she never knew. The first girl was heartless in alot of things, to her the world revolved around her, and to her it was a form of birth control, she swore condoms ruined sex for her, why she didnt get the pill, I don't know.

    And the only proof I can supply of her having those abortions is from the horses mouth, I never did accompany her to a clinic or anything. Now next time you insult me make sure the damn shoe fits.
  12. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    So, based off 2 subjects, you're suggesting many women use abortion as a post-contraceptive method when your own experience also dictates that there is a strong psychological detriment to a woman who does have an abortion? By your own admission, the other girl was not "normal" (for lack of a better word) and thus, isn't it unfair to suggest she is representative of the standard mean?

    Sorry about my tone, I just hate that rhetoric crap that fundamentalists use and I incorrectly ascrived that to you. Again, sorry.

    E_S
  13. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Um, that hardly sounds like they were using abortions regularly as birth control...
  14. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    So, based off 2 subjects, you're suggesting many women use abortion as a post-contraceptive method when your own experience also dictates that there is a strong psychological detriment to a woman who does have an abortion? By your own admission, the other girl was not "normal" (for lack of a better word) and thus, isn't it unfair to suggest she is representative of the standard mean?

    Im sure there are others that do it too. This is a large sick world, and Im not suggesting all or most women use abortion as birth control, but there are some out there that do. The girl who had two abortions helped shape my stance on this debate, yes she wasn't normal, she was heartless. And if she got pregnant again, I wouldnt doubt she'd go off to the clinic again.

    The other girl wasn't heartless, she'd be seemingly happy one minute than crying the next, the abortion will always haunt her, and has done a number on her psychiatrically (SP?) I don't think shes all there either, and she needs professional help (the first girl just needs to be fixed). These two women had alot to do with the way I see abortions.

    And as you say your sick of fundamentalist pro-lifers; I am sick of being looked as an oppressor of rights or a doctor killer, just because I believe the fetus has a right to live. Like the story Kelly and Du (SP?) it painted all pro-lifers as evil, and pro-choicers as somesort of hero. Pro-lifers aren't evil, its ludicrous to think of pro-lifers (aside from those who kill doctors) as evil. What is so evil about wanting to save lives?
  15. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Jedi-Zen: Nothing, per se, but we've yet to establish that we're actually talking about a human life since scientists and theologians have yet to come to a majority consesnus on where life begins. To me, it's a crime to restrict the freedom of choice when we can't agree on an answer about when life begins. Why are we so afraid of letting people decide for themselves whether or not an abortion is a legitimate act? If you don't believe in it, you don't practise it, that simple.

    E_S
  16. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Life begins when they start feeding you the same crap their parents fed them. Which is usually after birth. :D Just my opinion. I could be wrong. :p
  17. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Nice post, and excellent points about Federal vs. State laws and courts on this issue.

    Aw, thanks Red-Seven :).....

    I just don't see this as being a huge issue in our government right now. We've got Iraq and bin Laden to keep us busy. Politically, this is most likely going to be an argument for another time.


    Peace,

    V-03
  18. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I OBJECT!!!! I mean, I spent a lot of time debating in this thread, I want to see the record from time to time

    The record won't go anywhere, as this thread will remain in existence, just locked.

    Sorry to cut into the discussion here, but I figure that when you get very large threads, it keeps new people from joining the discussion.

    Anyone from here can start the new thread :).

    Great thread here, everyone.
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