Abortion Laws, Pro Life or Pro Chice?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by sultan_of_agrabah, Jun 7, 2002.

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  1. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    There is a HUGE difference between monetary support and 24hr care for a new baby.

    I agree, but I am pointing out that we still hold them accountable.


    I think I will always support a mother (and father's because he should be asked too) right to choose.

    Can you clarify what you said -- do you mean you support a father's right to demand an abortion?
  2. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    I don't think Father's should be able to demand an abortion, but they should be included in the process. They should be asked what they want to do/happen and so forth.

    I am finding it really hard to put into words what I want to say at the moment. I would like to continue this debate with you, but I really have to go study for an exam I have today.

    Kithera

  3. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    I don't think Father's should be able to demand an abortion, but they should be included in the process. They should be asked what they want to do/happen and so forth.

    I think you realize, though, how difficult it would be to pass a law requiring the father's involvement in the decision whether or not to keep the child. Most of the people who support abortion rights use the argument of a "right to privacy", which probably includes privacy from the child's father. It's pretty easy to think of cases where they would not want a woman to have the man's input, such as an abusive relationship.

    But, besides that, I don't think anyone here would support a man's "right" to choose to abort his child. That being said, I need to know the reason why the woman should be given this "right."
  4. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Because I don't believe a ball of cells is developed enough to be considered an equal human being, along with a further developed fetus, or a newborn baby, or a child, or an adult.
  5. womberty Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2002
    star 4
    Because I don't believe a ball of cells is developed enough to be considered an equal human being,

    But we don't make laws based on what you believe. We base laws on what can be proven.

    We can prove that the ball of cells to which you refer is the same entity that later emerges from the womb as a human being. We can prove that it is a separate entity from the mother, with a different genetic composition from either of its parents. We can prove that not only are these human cells, but this collection of cells comprises an individual human entity in its entirety.

    Now, please try to prove to me that it is not a human life, or a human being.
  6. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    Genetically, it is human, but it is not an equal human life to one that is more developed. Therefore, I do not believe it has the rights of a person until it is more developed.

    Besides, you have beliefs, too. You believe that because it is genetically human at conception, the embryo should be protected.

    I recall lurking in the previous abortion thread. As I recall, it eventually sank because no one could agree on when the fetus becomes human. And I don't believe there ever will be a consensus on this in society. There will never be enough of a majority believing in one way for the debate on this issue to end.

    I think I'll just quit this debate now. I really don't have anything else to say.
  7. sultan_of_agrabah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 1
    Do you want us to go back to the 1960's when they took children away from unmarried mothers and told them (the mothers) that their child was dead and that the couldn't see them. Meanwhile they put the child up for adoption.


    Make it this simple kit, Do you think that any one of those babies from the 1960's or any other baby for that matter that was put up for adoption and was not allowed to see their biological mothers, they would rather die? They would say, oh, my mother did not want me, I am poor, I would rather have been dead.....I don't think so.
  8. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    This argument should be raising red flags everywhere.

    If we do not know when the fetus becomes human, shouldn't we err on the side of caution? If we don't, we will be guilty of murder.

    Let's compare this to a military strike. Suppose Osama Bin Laden himself is located at a restaurant. We can send in a plane and blow up the restuarant. However, this restuarant is very popular and there is a good chance that many innocent people will be there. Do we go ahead with the strike, or do we hold back because we cannot be sure innocents will not be harmed.

    We want to get Osama Bin Laden, just like we want to have a woman control her on body. But when other innocent people can possibly be involved, we have to factor them into the equation and weigh the desirablity/morality of going forward with what we want.


    As for another part of this abortion debate, where people are saying that the baby will be born into a poor situation anyway (bad mother, no father, living on the streets, etc.) and will be better off not having lived in the first place, I submit that this should be the individual's choice, not the choice all of us want/deem better to be imposed on the indivdual whose life is hanging in the balance.
  9. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Let's make it simpler; do you want every person who becomes pregnant to be a mother even if they are not pyschologically ready for it?

    In Queensland, where I live, abortion is only legal if the doctor thinks there may be a health issues for either mother or child. That means that if the doctor doesn't believe that the person isn't pyschologically ready to have a baby, and in fact that it would be adversive to their health and wellbeing then they can suggest and then allow an abortion to be carried out.

    Kit
  10. sultan_of_agrabah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 1
    Jediflyer you make an excellent point. I agree with you 100%.

    Now Kit, all i have to say is that if one is not psychologically ready to have a baby then they are not psychologically ready to have sex. To have sex means that you have to accept that you can get pregnant. if one can't handle that then they should use contraceptives, and might i add one more time that condoms with spermicide and birth control produce a 99.99% effective rate of preventing unwanted pregnancy. which means that only very few reported cases result in a pregnancy and usually it was because of a misuse of the contraceptive(s). If you go up to an orphan i dare you to ask them if in spite of the hardship they endured they would rather their mom had just aborted them. Do you think they would say yes? if it was you, would you? Think also of mothers in bad situations who kept their baby even after thinking of abortion, do you think they regret their decision?
  11. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    To have sex means that you have to accept that you can get pregnant.

    I still have to disagree, if we lived in a perfect world then that would be the case, but we don't. Teens often don't think about after affects, what they live for, think about is often only the moment they are in.

    Let me relate to you, something that has stuck with me since grade eight. I went to an all girl's school, I had one friend who lost her virginity when she was twelve to a boy who was much older then her. She told and my friends one day when we were sitting around at lunch. I was horrified, I can remember the moment simply because I was so horrified at what had happened. Not that she had, had sex, but simply because she had done it to please a boy. My best friend asked her if she had used contraceptions and had she thought she might get pregnant (my best friend was older and had a mite more experiance then us in this matter). Up until that moment I hadn't even thought about, apparently neither had she. She went as white as a ghost and soon began crying. Apparently she had used contraceptives but she still thought she might get pregnant and was terrified that she was. She hadn't even thought about it, she had been more concerned with not catching a STD then anything else.

    Now I remember that because up until then I hadn't thought about. Admittedly I was only 12 at the time, but I'm sure many girl's didn't think about it the first time (or the second or the third).

    What I'm trying to say, is that you don't have to be psychologically ready to have sex, simple peer pressure or even worse pressure from a partenar can make one side give in. I doubt many people do think about it until it happens.

    Me personally, I've had one pregnancy scare during my life. That was last year, I was two months into a relationship with my current boyfriend and when I started to feel sick, get dizzy and so forth my doctor recommened me to get blood tests because she thought I was pregnant. She also recommended that if I was pregnant that I should consider abortion and that she would help me if I wanted to chose that option. The thing is, was that I was ready pyschologically to have sex, but I wasn't ready to spend the next twenty years of my life with a child. I am still not ready for it now, I simply don't have the time, the monetary resources or the patience to deal with a small child. Luckily I didn't have to take my doctor up on the offer.

    I'm not saying that I would have either, I would have considered my options very carefully and in particular focusing on if I could raise the child with the help of my extended family (which I might add is HUGE), or adoption.


    if one can't handle that then they should use contraceptives, and might i add one more time that condoms with spermicide and birth control produce a 99.99% effective rate of preventing unwanted pregnancy

    And may I point out (once again) that 99.99% effectivness is not 100%, and that I could list you about fifteen families that I know of that were using more then one form of contraception when the woman fell pregnant. Oh and yes, (having talked to them again) in all cases they were used correctly and in one case (the woman who had her tubes tied four times), her husband was still using a condom! Knowing cases such as these make me rather cynical about contraceptives most of the time.


    However, having said that contraception is not fool-proof. With some variations of the pill all it takes is missing your three hour time slot to have devastating consequences, or throwing up or getting diarrohea (sp). All it takes is for a condom to split, for something not to have been placed/inserted correctly. Then we could go on about people who are allergic to certain contraceptives (I have a flatmate who would literally die if she took the pill). Yes, they do have to resort to other methods of contraception but it is still there...and what if you are allergic to both the pill and latex (have a friend who is like that).

    As for the orphan question, th
  12. DarthPhelps Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2002
    star 5
    I still have to disagree, if we lived in a perfect world then that would be the case, but we don't. Teens often don't think about after affects, what they live for, think about is often only the moment they are in.
    Poor excuse. 'Oh, these are just immature teens. They don't think about cause & effect'. Teens aren't that dumb.

    What we are talking about is the 'now' question. Does the mother have a right to chose what to do with her baby's body, right now while she is still under 3 months pregnant? Does she have the right to chose what is going to happen with the rest of her life? Does the government or indeed anyone else (with maybe exceptions of the father) have a right to tell her what to do with her baby's body, and her life?


  13. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Poor excuse. 'Oh, these are just immature teens. They don't think about cause & effect'. Teens aren't that dumb.

    Some are. Most don't think about the long term consequences of what they are about to do. I'm not saying they are dumb, I'm just saying they don't necessarily think very well in the heat of a moment. This applies to adults and children as well as teenagers. The simple reality is, is that people are not going to be ever vigilant about not getting pregnant, there are going to be mistakes made (either through their fault or through an incident that they had no control over).

    Back to the maturity issue, my flatmate came up with an example while we were talking the issue over as a household. He said (and I quote): "A three year old is deemed mature enough to swing a play sword, but that same three year old is not mature enough to handle killing someone with it."

    Kit
  14. sultan_of_agrabah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 1
    "And may I point out (once again) that 99.99% effectivness is not 100%, and that I could list you about fifteen families that I know of that were using more then one form of contraception when the woman fell pregnant. Oh and yes, (having talked to them again) in all cases they were used correctly and in one case (the woman who had her tubes tied four times), her husband was still using a condom! Knowing cases such as these make me rather cynical about contraceptives most of the time."

    Wow you know 15 people? The chances of that happening are slim to none. i can't name one person. So you know the .01% and they say they used all the contraceptives correctly huh? So say out of 150,000 people, you met the 15 where it failed. I can't even fathom knowing half that many people, or even 1/8 of that. I guess you just know more people. As for the woman who got her tubes tied 4 times. Tell her a message from me, "stop going to the same doctor!" and tell her to try other methods listed below.

    There's another method I forgot to add, it's pulling out with a condom on with a spermicide, (if you're super mutant fertile, use two and pull out) No sperm, no egg. There are so many forms of birth control if people strived to find out about all of them, there's different types of pills for those allergic, different types of condoms/diaphrams, spermicides, iud which virtually gives no harmful side effects and stays in your system up to 5 years releasing a low dose of estrogen and can be taken out at anytime, they're even working on FDA approval for a men's pill. There's a shot which all my friends get every three months called depo provera, etc. all of these I mentioned can be found free especially for teens with no healthcare coverage and is all confidential.

    "Teens often don't think about after affects, what they live for, think about is often only the moment they are in."

    As for teens who just follow their other heads, and just make a mistake and forget to use proper birth control or are scared, that is what the emergency contraceptive is for. It can be taken up to 72 hours after sex. Teens are not so stupid that they cannot fathom that the initial purpose of sex is for procreation. They learn in school that pregnancy can result if they don't take necessary precautions.

    "I'm sure many girl's didn't think about it the first time (or the second or the third)."

    Well it's time they did think about it.
    I know many people who've used contraceptives and have not gotten pregnant. More than 15 people. I know ones that did get pregnant because they didn't use contraceptives and didn't take the emergency pill because they were in denial. This is not an excuse to get an abortion. Teens have it in the back of their heads that if all else fails, that being their luck since they don't use proper protection, they can have an abortion.

    For those who think a fetus at three months cannot compare to a baby, think of this. A failed abortion where the woman was induced to go into labor resulted in a newborn child. A baby who was being torn limb from limb survived. If the doctor had done this to the baby outside the womb he would be in jail for attempted murder. This baby lives without her arm. Think of the teenagers who killed their baby after it was born. Is abortion any different? It's killing a baby, no matter if you call it a fetus or not alive. So many people have abortions in the second and third trimester. Can you believe this is legal?! Do you know how many premies live? you might know someone who was premature. Think that aborted baby could have lived and survived at 5 months old and instead it's mother killed it. You still think it's not "alive?" It's very much alive. These babies fight to live, they want to live. (See the silent scream video) abortion is not a mother's right to choose, it's a mother's right to kill a baby.

    "I simply don't have the time, the monetary resources or the patience to deal with a small child."

    Convenience does not justify having an abortion. Being ashamed of what people might think does not
  15. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Pregnancy is not punishment for having sex. Sex cannot be controlled by laws, or glib moral platitutes.

    Darth Phelps, 'teens aren't that dumb'-but they are that inexperienced.

    People have sex. Sex can result in pregnancy. One cannot stop lovemaking, it's gonna happen. If you think we should attempt to, try reading "1984".

    Like I posted earlier, I do not 'like' abortion, but I support the right to choose. Opposite the moral ideals, one has to consider the practical side of life. To be pragmatic, outlawing abortion will cause an unprecedented rise in the number of unwanted and abandoned children, children born with drug addictions or HIV/hep c, and children who are abused.

    Why? Because the rich will continue to obtain abortions, and the poor will get them on the street and end up in hospitals where the average taxpayer will become fiscally responsible for them. My point is that the poor will suffer, like they always do.

    Anyway, I don't want another too long post. Like somebody said, read the actual roe v wade decision. I cannot state the argument better than that.

    Peace,

    V-03
  16. sultan_of_agrabah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 1
    "Pregnancy is not punishment for having sex. Sex cannot be controlled by laws, or glib moral platitutes.People have sex. Sex can result in pregnancy. One cannot stop lovemaking, it's gonna happen. If you think we should attempt to, try reading "1984"."'

    pregnancy is a result from having sex it's a fact. I am not saying to stop lovemaking of course people will not stop lovemaking. What i want to point out is you cannot compare now to the 1960s or even 80's because birth control was not as readily available then. Now we have vagifilm, super thin condoms,spermicides, iud, bp, depo that is available at any planned parenthood and college campus for free, the doctor or nurse can even prescribe contraceptives/spermicide and birth control you pick up at walgreens all this is free.

    The problem with society today is not that they can't stop lovemaking it's that they are too selfish to use contraception because it doesn't feel as good, or they don't like it, or they're just plain lazy and take the risk knowing they have that way out. But it shouldn't be that easy. People especially teens and poor people have all this free birth control but choose not to use it. If a pregnancy results they get an abortion, Abortion is not something you get every time you get pregnant because you were stupid one time. If you were stupid one time you go to the doctor and get an emergency contraceptive pill... you have 72 hours to do that! 72 hours after your stupid mistake of not using it. that should be the final resort of people not wanting to have a baby after their stupid mistake. Stupid mistakes one personally makes should not give anyone an excuse or a right to kill an unborn child.

    Babies have a right to life, all of us were once that age or that size in our mother's womb. do you think we would want our mothers to abort us, because we were a mistake? And believe me many of you probably are ;) j/k
    if the mother has a right to choose what to do with her body she has to be responsible for it, if you really don't want a baby use two or more forms of birth control and if all else fails, including morning after pill (that is very rare) there is the option of adoption. I don't think that there will be an increase in abandoned children, I think people will start using all the different forms of birthcontrol and stop being lazy or selfish. I say go make love but be safe and be protected.
  17. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    If you were stupid one time you go to the doctor and get an emergency contraceptive pill... you have 72 hours to do that! 72 hours after your stupid mistake of not using it.

    I recall earlier in this thread the morning after pill is only about 70% effective or something, and not everyone is able to take it. Just thought I'd point that out.
  18. solojones Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    You know what's 100% effective? Not making stupid choices.

    -sj loves kevin spacey
  19. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    "Babies have a right to life"

    You are absolutely correct. But I feel that for the record, I should point out that "Harrison's Manual of Internal Medicine", considered The reference by doctors across all fields, defines a baby by convention as "a full-term fetus that has either gone through the process of vaginal delivery or has been delivered through c-section". In the first 6-8 weeks of pregnancy, when well over 96% of elective abortions are performed, it is not a baby.

    From Rebecca191 on pg 5 (I think)

    "It is not developed enough to be able to make a choice about anything!"

    Yeppers. Nor is it developed enough to be considered equal to the mother around it.

    I WILL have ONE short post!

    Peace,

    V-03
  20. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    We're only human. We mess up, we make mistakes, we don't always think wisely, or think before we act. We're not always smart. And we never will be perfect. If we were, we wouldn't be human. People shouldn't always have to pay for their mistakes. Not when it's not a baby yet.

    And I really meant to stop the debate, too...
  21. sultan_of_agrabah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 11, 2002
    star 1
    "Harrison's Manual of Internal Medicine", considered The reference by doctors across all fields, defines a baby by convention as "a full-term fetus that has either gone through the process of vaginal delivery or has been delivered through c-section".
    Vaderize

    Let's see, have you ever seen a picture of an aborted baby? A fetus? how's that an aborted fetus? It has a nose and a mouth and eyes, it cries, it smiles, it even has fingerprints as small and tiny as it is. I don't need a medical definition to tell me whether or not it's a baby, the most important thing is it's alive and it feels. It is directly affected by everything the mother does to herself. So let me rephrase it for those who want to think it's not living or not a baby,--- i think the living fetus is a baby and has a right to life. Plus the law still makes it legal to have abortions in the 3rd trimester. I don't care what percentage it is, it should be zero.

    "People shouldn't always have to pay for their mistakes. Not when it's not a baby yet." Rebecca1


    I would also like to point out that if you made a stupid mistake your best bet is to take the pill and not make the same stupid mistake again. as for it not being 100% effective nothing except abstinence is 100% effective even abortions are not. Read the previous posts regarding failed abortion attempts not to mention that it harbors worse side effects than the pill, emergency pill and what not such as heavy bleeding, cramps, dizziness, nausea, and possible infertility. Might I add the emotional trauma and stress many women go through after having an abortion. So for all those allergic to birth control and would rather kill their baby because they don't think the pill is going to work, think about some health concerns regarding abortion that are much more severe. So stop with the excuses and start using preventative methods. Find one that will work and stick with it. Murder of an unborn child is not the way to fix a mistake.

    "We mess up, we make mistakes, we don't always think wisely, or think before we act. We're not always smart." Rebecca

    Robbers make mistakes, Terrorists make mistakes, Murderers make mistakes, Senators make mistakes, Teachers make mistakes, Parents make mistakes, Teens make mistakes, Good people make mistakes. The fact that you are human and humans make mistakes does not excuse the act of abortion because you made one or two or three. People pay for their mistakes and learn from them. If abortion can erase it as if it never happened... It will always be a way out, an excuse when it is a horrific thing to do. maybe you can tell yourself it's not a baby and it's not alive til it comes out, but many mothers probably yours, remember when you were inside them and felt that you were a seperate other person, that felt, cried, kicked, swam, ate etc.,


    I have important things to say, so i will not have just one post.
  22. Rebecca191 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 1999
    star 6
    I doubt a first trimester fetus is as developed as the one you described. I saw the pictures in my health textbook and it was more of a little blob than anything else. For the record, I only believe abortions should be allowed in the first trimester, unless the mother's life is at risk.
  23. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    You missed the point entirely, sultan.

    "The law still allows for third trimester abortions. 'I don't care' what the percentage is, it should be zero.

    You don't care? Well, I guess it's a good thing you're not in charge. Others do. I'm one of them. So let's look at some facts.

    Anti-choice activitists decry the supposedly 'huge' numbers of late-term abortion procedures that take place, holding up pictures of aborted fetuses and crying "all abortion, all abortion!" with righteousness and indignation. This is simply not the case.

    The procedure that has been called into legal question is known as 'dilation and evacuation', or 'd and e'. It involves enlarging the cervix, and pulling the fetuses' head down with a vacuum extraction device. The ob/gyn then punctures the skull at the base of the neck and 'evacuates' the brain and upper spinal column contents using suction. The fetus is then fully delivered.

    Now, this sounds pretty terrible, right? Well, it is. Which is why D and E's are performed for pressing medical reasons. If you think I am lying, please check the website of the american association of obstetrics and gynecology, I'm almost certain they post abortion statistics(although I could be wrong).

    The law allows it, true, but what you failed to mention is that there are RESTRICTIONS on just how and when this may be done. Specifically stated, this is not a procedure performed for elective termination of pregnancy. I don't know for certain that it is illegal per se, but I don't know any ob/gyn who does this without a medical reason.

    As far as you 'not caring', well, you really can't make that decision for anybody else. If a pregnancy in the third trimester runs into crisis, due to any one of a number of medical complications (diabetes, pre-eclampsia or eclampsia, undiagnosed severe genetic defect, and, most pressing, severe irreversible hemorrhage from abruptio placentiae, to name a few), an abortion may be necessary to save the life of the mother.

    The supreme court overturned nevada's "partial-birth abortion" ban (an inaccurate term generated by pro-lifers to flare tempers) not because it 'liked' the procedure, but because the wording of the law was such that no exceptions could be made for the life of the mother, and the law itself could be applied to all abortions. Therefore, the court upheld Roe v Wade.

    Frankly, I wouldn't want someone like you making that decision if it were my wife dying of a hemorrhage during the last three months of a pregnancy. The decision to perform surgery would be up to her, with hopefully some input from me. It is none of your business-the only illusion here is that it is.

    V-03
  24. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Womberty, every time I here you say something alluding to "that's what you get for having pre-marital un-protected sex" I laught to myself.

    I laugh not because your morality is out of whack, it seems actually quite high, but because what you preach simply isn't true! If a woman has unprotected sex, and get's an STD like AIDS, you can say "that's the responsibility you are forced to accept." But with pregnancy, you can get a legal abortion! Hee hee! You get it? You keep making statements like that because you WISH they were true or THINK they should be true, but the plain fact of the matter is that it's legal.

    There are lot's of things that make up people's beliefs, and that's great. I myself am anti-death penalty, and when I say "the government has no right to take a life," I laugh at myself cause it's funny to me for two reasons: 1) The government clearly has that right in most states, cause it's legal! So they DO have the right! and 2), I find it hard to believe that I support a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy but I don't support the government's right to terminate a murderer!

    Well, I reconcile that by believing that the death penalty is wrong because innocents may die and that a fetus is not a human. It's admirable that you so belief in a fetus's rights, but even though it's alive, it's not a human life to me. Many animals go through cycles, I mean, it's like the caterpillar and the butterfly. I think of a fetus as alive, sure, but not as humans. If you truly respect life, than you must be a vegetarian too. We don't even keep records of conception dates, cause who cares? It's when the babies are born that really count.

    But also know, even though your views supposedly aren't influenced by religion, the reason Catholics and other Christians don't allow contraceptive devices and abortions is because they want Christians to breed scores of Christian children and take over every inch of earth! ;)
  25. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    So for all those allergic to birth control and would rather kill their baby because they don't think the pill is going to work, think about some health concerns regarding abortion that are much more severe

    I don't know...let's see. I think that certain death is much worse then the symptom's you described. I'm speach-less about what you just said, I can't believe someone would post something that came across as so naive!

    Kit
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