About Empire and Lucas...

I haven't been able to read the Making of TESB book by Rinzler yet.... but for those who have been able to...

Has the book changed your perception about Lucas' influence on Empire? How influencial do you think he was during pre and post production? And specially, how often was he present during principal photography and how much did he contribute to it?

 

It doesn't really go into the supposed conflict that Lucas had with Kershner & Kurtz over the direction of the film itself, & there's certainly no mention of the classic "You're ruining my movie!" quote.

Gary Kurtz doesn't come off too well - it's hardly a hatchet job, but it makes it clear that GL believed Kurtz was losing control over the upward-spiralling budget. Which, in all fairness, he did.

The main thing I took away from the book was a great deal of admiration for Kershner as a director. The massive transcript of him discussing the carbon-freezing scene & then shooting it is phenomenal, all the more effective in that I practically know the scene shot-for-shot, word-for-word. To read about Kersh & the actors actually inventing & discussing the tiny nuances which we now take for granted is amazing. So much just wasn't there on the page.

 

Pre-production absolutely hands-on. The original story outline was his, and after Brackett's first draft he also wrote the second draft himself before turning the writing over to Kasdan. Every other aspect of the pre-production is also very much Lucas/Kershner teamwork.

In post he was obviously there alongside Kershner, but I get the impression that he respected Kershner very much and made sure he didn't compromise the director's integrity. The alleged conflict over the cut is not discussed, which means one of two things: It's either skipped by the author for whatever reason, or it wasn't nearly as big a deal as some make it out to be.

He was there now and then, except Norway, certainly more than the "flew over a couple of times" that he's been known to say. When the film got way over budget and 2 months behind schedule, he effectively replaced Kurtz. For the Dagobah sequences, last on the schedule, Lucas was on set as a hands-on producer.

 

I think there's a bit in there where Kurtz wasn't that crazy about Kenner representatives coming to the set, looking things over and such, so they could have Empire toys on store shelves in time for the film's release.

 

Can't recall that bit, but why would Kurtz have problems with it?

 

Probably because it would be distracting, and made him feel like, "Are we making toys or are we making a movie?".

 

Since it in no way would impact the making of the film, it's purely a rhetorical point.

I'm leafing through the book, but can't find it.

 

The main thing I took away from the book was a great deal of admiration for Kershner as a director.


Kershner may have done a good job as a director for ESB, but I don't exactly have a high regard for his career as a whole. Perhaps he was simply lucky with the story he was given with.

 

you know what they say about luck ...

 

I imagine his Empire tenure was the moment in which Kershner found himself in harmony with his creative force. In doing so, he transcended the mediocrity of his past output and crafted one of the great films of American cinema. These sort of anomalies are fairly commonplace in the arts.

 

One of the greatest films of American cinema?? Huh?

 

Fair point, the greatest.

 

One of the greatest fantasy movies ever made, certainly. But one of the greatest films of American cinema? That's up against a hundred or so years of some pretty stiff competition, so let's not get carried away.

 

No, he is right, it IS the Greatest Movie of All Time.

It is pure cinema, a film that can only be told in the format of film. Both a Major Studio production on the scale of the grand old epics, and a scrappy independent film, almost homemade in half formed warehouses and backrooms. Like Citizen Kane, you can see it inventing the language of Movies around it. And the level of care, artistry, and detail outpace every other film in the Saga.

 

It's not really all that outlandish a thing to say, considering how highly regarded and adored the film is among film fans in general.

 

I'm not getting carried away. If I were to compile a Top 100 list of English-speaking films, Empire would be included, alongside other SF//Fantasy films like Frankenstein, The Bride of Frankenstein, 2001: A Space Odyssey, Alien, Blade Runner, Brazil, the Lord of the Rings, and Children of Men.

And if you're curious, I would place THX-1138, Star Wars, and Revenge of the Sith in my Top 101-200 list.

 

^ yep

 

Let's say that ESB is really the masterpiece of the whole STAR WARS Saga. Few people will disagree.

To me, it's even one of the most beautiful film I've seen in my life so far in terms of photography, colors, lighting, sets and location (Hoth scenes). Really awesome.

Regarding whose movie it really is, I tend to think it's in the end really Kershner's, as he was given large freedom and artistic control that Lucas had granted him before he took the job. With Kurtz allowing him even more control than Lucas had bargained for... With of course strong implication and main involvment by Lucas in pre-production (story, screenplay, conceptual design) and post-production (special effects overseeing). So in a way it is Lucas's movie too. But it's the director who practically executes and shoots the film in that case.

Lucas told several times that if it had been up to him to direct, he wouldn't have done it that way, sort of aknowledging Kershner's personal and original contribution to it.

Anyway, any artistic creation of this scale is eventually a team work.

 

I guess I'm one of the few then, because I've always preferred ROTJ the most; however Empire is a close second. Jedi just brings closure to the whole story and leaves me with a lasting impression. But Empire was definetly the most compelling, yes.

 

I like it too. It's indeed pretty close to ESB (especially the end : space battle and Luke's confrontation with Vader and the Emperor in the throne room), save for the Ewok adventure and the monster factory syndrome at the beginning (Jabba's palace). It also left me with a long lasting impression, as it was just before and during ROTJ (1983) release that I really became sort of fascinated by the overall story and the films.

But to me, and it's now pretty common knowledge for the majority of critics and viewers as well since the late 80's (although it's true I've never read any poll confirming it), ESB sets, design, dramatics and overall threatening mood make it hard to be topped. It's even completely independant from the Star Wars Saga and universe itself.

But you're right, all this will always remain subjective.

 

Okay, guys. Fair enough. I'm not one to bash people for liking SW movies.

Highly regarded and adored among SW fans, definitely. Or even sci-fi and fantasy fans, although that's less definitive. But film fans in general? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Most people I know that are film buffs but not into this particular kind of adventure movie definitely don't hold any Star Wars movie as all-time greats. They acknowledge Lucas and co's achievements, regardless of personal preference. But they would not consider Empire to be one of the greatest American motion pictures.

Even if I might.

And drg4: I worship every single movie you cited there.

 

Probably true. I wouldn't argue with you on that.

On the other hand, movies of this genre (Heroïc-Fantasy, Space Opera, "light" Sci-Fi) often tend to be rather neglected and under-estimated by general film buffs, film critics and scholars, or all-time greats charts makers, because the material doesn't appear to be "serious" enough, sort of childish and immature.

Unlike hard Sci-Fi with a much more intellectual approach, like Kubrick's 2001 A Space Odyssey or Tarkovsky's movies (Solaris, Stalker), that I like very much too as well.

Anyway, all-time greats lists will always remain subjective and questionable in the end.

 

Oh, I agree. I've gotten into quite a few heated arguments with cineastes, trying and failing to illustrate why Spielberg's Jaws deserves to be recognized as one of the ten greatest American films made.

If Jaws didn't win 'em over, Empire sure as heck wouldn't.

 

Why shouldn't it be? Though I must say, I am that guy amongst my film friends who strays away from the overly pretentious films unless of course it does anything for me. I prefer "overwhelming cinema" over "minimalist cinema", so the films I consider to be among the top 10 American films are a lot of the classic blockbusters (Star Wars, Jaws, Close Encounters, E.T.)- but it feels like blockbusters at that time had a lot more artistic merit to them than they do today.

 

That one is not controversial in my circles. Not necessarily TOP TEN, but definitely in the curriculum as one of the greatest American films.