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Absolutism Debate

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth-Seldon, Oct 17, 2003.

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  1. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    AS many of you know in the 17th century absolutism was the most succesful form of government. This was the Age of France and France was an absolutist state. In that time democracy could not work because of a lack of good communication as well as the fact that if a european nation became democratic it would be invaded by others thinking they were more powerful.

    Anyway after the fall of The Soviet Union Absolutism Super powers ended in the world. What if a nation became a super power which was absolutist today? Would America combat it? What nation could fall into absolutism?

    Darth-Seldon
     
  2. LadyElaine

    LadyElaine Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Perhaps you would care to define Absolutism for those of us who have no earthly idea what it means? Like, um, me?

    ;)
     
  3. Space_Man

    Space_Man Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2003
    Absolutism: "A form of government in which a ruler or government has absolute power." -- according to my desk dictionary.

    (side note: don't worry, LadyElaine I didn't know the definition either! ;) ).
     
  4. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    I apologize I thought you would all know what absolutism was. The above definition is a good one. I hope we can begin the debate.

    Darth-Seldon
     
  5. foofaspoon

    foofaspoon Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 1999
    AS many of you know in the 17th century absolutism was the most succesful form of government. This was the Age of France and France was an absolutist state.

    And it crippled France in the end, and even in this age she was increasingly challenged by the semi-democratic England (and Holland as well, I think?). What made France the greatest power was not her rulers, but her vast population, and consequently wealth. She was a brute strength power, largely. But the corruption and general ineficiency of her government would slowly take their toll.

    Anyway after the fall of The Soviet Union Absolutism Super powers ended in the world. What if a nation became a super power which was absolutist today? Would America combat it? What nation could fall into absolutism?

    For a start, it would be hard to see who could be a contender! But the US's reaction would depend largely on a number of things -including both short and long-term threat assessements, how open the power was to dialogue, it's economic system etc etc...

     
  6. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    How would a country become absolutist nowadays?

    (1) The democratic leader uses something as an excuse to declare martial law, then keeps the martial law going until the democracy is good and crippled. This could even happen in the US. It would be difficult, but not impossible. And there are countries where it would be easy.

    (2) Panicked voters choose things that lead to a state of martial law. This would most likely happen in response to a perceived enemy that is scarier than the idea of Big Brother watching you.

    I think we saw the psychology of all this after September 11. People were so freaked out they would have lit their own noses on fire if the govt had told them, "It will help prevent terrorism".

    To become absolutist without an immediate rebellion following, you would need the support of enough people to keep war at bay.
     
  7. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    May 17, 2003
    In response to the comment on France's population, France did not have the largest population. It had Cardial Richleu, Cardianl Mazaran and Louis the Sun King. That is what made it powerful. It was their centralization of government which made France powerful.

    Darth Seldon
     
  8. Master_SweetPea

    Master_SweetPea Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2002
    i'm not sure what the debate is...
    but I would fight it myself..
    either as a Marine,
    or as a Resistance Fighter...
     
  9. foofaspoon

    foofaspoon Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 1999
    In response to the comment on France's population, France did not have the largest population. It had Cardial Richleu, Cardianl Mazaran and Louis the Sun King. That is what made it powerful. It was their centralization of government which made France powerful.

    I disagree. Those people you mention, though famous, and undoubtably able statesmen did little to combat France's corruption, and comparitevly poor economic performance. The centralisation in power in France cemented these problems, and made it difficult to institute reform, with the consequence that France continually found itself matched by much smaller powers, principally Enland, who had much more decentralised and democratic (for the day) institutions. France was the most populous of the western powers at the time. The more Eastern powers may have been larger, but they suffered from ethnic strife, and even worse governmental systems than France.

    France was certainly a great power, but it never achieved the unbridled power that the UK, and US later achieved- principally because of it's creaking and centralised administration.
     
  10. Gandalf the Grey

    Gandalf the Grey Jedi Knight star 6

    Registered:
    May 14, 2000
    France was certainly a great power, but it never achieved the unbridled power that the UK, and US later achieved- principally because of it's creaking and centralised administration.

    I agree. At the height of French power, it wasn't really all that much stronger than the other major European states. It certainly wasn't dominant in North America - Spain had the best land even into the 16th century (though once the gold dried up it wasn't so great) and Britain had the next best piece of turf, the American colonies. All France had was what is now Canada. Nothing against Canada (I'm Canadian) but from the perspective of an Empire, the American colonies would have been (and were, for a time at least) far better to own. On the European continent, France didn't exactly conquer willy-nilly. They expanded their borders a little during the period, but not a great deal. They were one of the great powers, but they were not a superpower. The only nations that have ever really been superpowers were Great Britain, Russia, and the United States.


     
  11. GarthSchmader

    GarthSchmader Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2003
    IMO, the people within an 'absolutist' state have much more to fear from it than those outside it.

    I think the whole last part of the question, about what "America" would 'do' about it, is pretty durned silly.

    What the US will do really depends on what the state has to offer us. Iraq and Afghanistan both have vast petroleum riches. Any coincidence we went after both of them?

    I don't think so.
     
  12. Darth-Seldon

    Darth-Seldon Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    May 17, 2003
    How can you say France was not the biggest power of the time?

    England was pushed into a civil war due to Oliver Cromwell and his Civil War. England was also facing turbulent religious debates and conflicts.

    Spain had been a super power but was quickly losing the power it had.

    Germany had been divided into hundrends of small kingdoms and Italy was still divided city states.

    Russia was trying to become a western nation but had many problems also.

    Sweden and Denmark were fighting for control of the Scandenavian territory.

    At the time period France was the greatest superpower. And yes later on they faced problems and before absolutism they had conflict. That is not what this is about. This is at the Time of the Sun King they were the Super Power. That is why Historians have labeled it as the Age of France. Notice there was never an Age of England. The Age of Spain was followed by the Age of France.
     
  13. foofaspoon

    foofaspoon Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 1999
    At the time period France was the greatest superpower. And yes later on they faced problems and before absolutism they had conflict. That is not what this is about. This is at the Time of the Sun King they were the Super Power.

    France was never a Superpower. It was the greatest of the great powers for a while - but not by much.

    That is why Historians have labeled it as the Age of France. Notice there was never an Age of England. The Age of Spain was followed by the Age of France.

    Never heard it called that before - perhaps that's what French historians call it ;). The 19th century is sometimes referred to as the period of Pax Brittanica due to the overwhelming power of the UK for much of this period.

    Gandolf is correct - France was always hindered by strategic and geographical problems which prevented it from maximising its advantages.

    England was pushed into a civil war due to Oliver Cromwell and his Civil War. England was also facing turbulent religious debates and conflicts.

    The civil war period certainly hurt England - but didn't do any lasting, long term effects. Ironically, it ended up decentralising power in England more. The period of the civil war was only a portion of the time-frame, though, and England was pretty consistently able to match France.

    Spain had been a super power but was quickly losing the power it had.

    Very true - by the middle of the 17th Century, France had replaced Spain as the dominant land power - though 'Spain' was really just a part of a greater Hapsburg power for much of this time. However, Spain would still be in the top league until the 18th century.

    Germany had been divided into hundrends of small kingdoms and Italy was still divided city states.

    Again true.

    Russia was trying to become a western nation but had many problems also.

    Arguably it still hasn't succeeded :)

    Sweden and Denmark were fighting for control of the Scandenavian territory.

    And were too small demographically to maintain a great power status.

    The great power system at this time probably included England/Great Britain, France, Holland, Spain, with various Eastern powers jostling as well, but slightly divorced from these. The numbers got whittled down to a two horse reace by the begining of the 19th Century - UK & France. But neither under the Sun King nor Napoleon become the undisputed number one power - i.e. a Superpower.
     
  14. SL-SX388

    SL-SX388 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Hey, Palpatine did it to a whole galaxy.
     
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