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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Abstinence-only Sex Ed

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by gwaernardel, Jul 26, 2002.

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  1. chibiangi

    chibiangi Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 16, 2002
    I am 100% for schools teaching kids what masturbation is and that it is OK. I think it is absurd that sex education classes inform kids about birth control, pregnancy, and disease all under the guise of abstinence but do not let kids know that masturbation is another healthy option. I think it is especially important for girls because so many of my female friends seem to think it is dirty. What's even worse, is that many of them never had an orgasm until they were well into their 20s because they didn't know or think to do it themselves. Personally, I think if kids are taught that getting in touch with themselves is OK and that it is a normal part of their sexuality that builds their sexual identity, even repitoire, they might just hold off on sex until they are out of school or at least until they have a clue what they want.
     
  2. JediOverlord

    JediOverlord Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 28, 2000
    I think abstinence should be taught and stressed over all,but knowledge about birth control should be available for those who want or need it.

    You know what would really work? I saw this one movie in sex ed class in high school that showed the consequences of this one couple doing it. It made me not want to get a girl pregnant,even though I was quite shy. Show that,as well as the Molly Ringwald movie For Keeps,as a regular part of sex ed,and kids will be scared out of their minds about sex.
     
  3. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    What's even worse, is that many of them never had an orgasm until they were well into their 20s because they didn't know or think to do it themselves.

    Yep, I've heard this from tons of females. And many of them go through guy after guy, searching for one who can "give" them an orgasm. I have learned to look sympathetic upon hearing this, but the first time someone told me this I looked shocked and said, "You couldn't have one yourself?" Why make it your partner's responsibility to please you? We're responsible for our own happiness in all areas of life. When people expect mates to fulfill them - in bed, or in other areas of the relationship - this is where they grow dissatisfied and start looking to "better deal" the mate they have with someone new. It leads to so much unnecessary suffering.

    Jedioverlord, interesting points. What I've never understood is why it doesn't seem to occur to guys that if you've ever had sex at all and didn't keep track of a previous lover for at least nine months after you last had sex with her, you COULD have a child you don't know about out there right now. You know what I mean? Girls have to worry about HAVING a baby, but why don't guys seem concerned about the possibility of there being a child of theirs out there somewhere that they don't even know exists? Does this never occur to them? How could it not, with SW being so popular? LOL. Unexpected fatherhood kind of a main theme there, for the father as much as the son.

    I have even gone so far as to speculate there's something funky in male brain programming like squirrels have. Squirrels are designed to forget where they've planted half their nuts each year - that way the squirrel still has nuts to eat through the winter, but has also planted some that will sprout or get eaten by other critters or serve some other purpose in nature. Maybe males, too, are programmed to forget where all they've buried their nuts. :p
     
  4. LordJedi

    LordJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 15, 2001
    I know quite a few Hmong couples that are only married within their culture and laugh at the idea of getting a marriage license, as it is seen as somewhat insulting to them to need to have some piece of paper stating what they already know - that they are in love and are willing to stay together.

    As much as I hate doctor Laura, I must agree with her about this one. If it's just a silly piece of paper, why not write on it? What harm is it gonna do to you? If you've got kids, you'll get a per child tax credit (we can debate that another time) and most other tax credits are aimed at married couples and families (one reason I wish I could get married right now). Sure, the government uses it to know that you're married. So what. They already know practically everything about you that they need anyway. Unless you pay cash for everything, and I mean you have no bank accounts whatsoever, the government already knows about you.

    Regarding the idea of taking responsibility for your actions, I wish it were true. Unfortunately, in todays society, it's always somebody elses fault. Yes, if you're willing to take responsibility, I don't care what you do with your life. But, the moment you ask the government for help because you mad bad decisions, that's when i get angry because now I'm paying for your bad decision too.

    And this whole idea that marriage is mostly done for money or the fear of being alone is crap. That might be why a few marriages happen, but I don't think it's the case in the majority of them. I myself will be getting married in the next couple of years and I can assure you that money/fear have nothing to do with. I want to spend the rest of my life with the woman I love.
     
  5. neoxeon2

    neoxeon2 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2000
    i say parents shouldn't let their kids out the door w/o a leesh till their 16. too many kids are having kids.
    my sister lost it when she was 16, and my younger one at 14. i think parents are losing control of their kids.
    when i was 14 i didn't have that thought in my head at all. yeah foolin round w/ a girl was in everyones mind. but everyone said "Im waiting" now it almost seemes like a race. my sisters freinds all have lost it. none of them are older then 15. thats wrong. i lost it at 18, most of my friends lost it earlier but not at 16-14.
    i don't wnat to get into it now, cause i just found out 2 days ago, so i'm still ready to hurt the kid
     
  6. gwaernardel

    gwaernardel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    And this whole idea that marriage is mostly done for money or the fear of being alone is crap. That might be why a few marriages happen, but I don't think it's the case in the majority of them.

    Why do you think the divorce rate is at about 50% then?
     
  7. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    And this whole idea that marriage is mostly done for money or the fear of being alone is crap. That might be why a few marriages happen, but I don't think it's the case in the majority of them

    I believe it is the case in the majority of marriages I've seen. Maybe I know bad people.... or maybe I look below the surface of things. Either way, don't call my experience "crap". Just disagree politely. Jeez.
     
  8. CwrnPuppet

    CwrnPuppet Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I'm just waiting for Bob Barker to switch gears and start saying, "Remember to spay or neuter your children."
     
  9. gwaernardel

    gwaernardel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
  10. Vaderize03

    Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Oct 25, 1999
    Abstinence stressed education is probably the best way to go; teach all methods of birth control, and yes teach masturbation so young teens don't think there is anything wrong with them when they do that, but stress the abstinence as the only way to prevent disease and pregnancy.

    Better education would probably result in a lower abortion rate, although I find it interesting that a lot of family-planning 'groups' and 'councils' that are anti-abortion also vehemently oppose the teaching of anything other than abstinence-only sex-ed on the grounds that it 'encourages' kids to have sex.

    Just a thought.

    Peace,

    V-03
     
  11. Maveric

    Maveric Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 1999
    I have always thought that the reason for such a high divorce rate was due to the ease of getting one. You have a disagreement with your spouse and instead of trying to figure out why people just say "that's it! I want a divorce" and your done.

    I remember a Meryle Streep movie (the one where she is a white water rafter) where she has a conversation with her mother. She tells her mother that she is getting a divorce and ask who her mother and father stayed together so long. Her mother replies that her generation has allowed themselves the "out" of marriage.

    That, and my wife and I have an agreement that the person who files for divorce automatically loses the kids. :)
     
  12. gwaernardel

    gwaernardel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    I do agree with you on that Maveric, but I also believe that people get married far too quickly, and often for the sexual reasons. I know way too many people who either got married while pregnant, or shortly before becoming pregnant.
     
  13. TeeBee

    TeeBee Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2002
    I also believe that people get married far too quickly

    Agreed. I can even vouch for it personally, and witnessed it in my sister. I believe if you get married while still in the "la la la, I'm in LOOOOVE!" starry-eyed mode, you will be in for a rude awakening when it wears off. And it will, usually within a year.

    Waiting until you're past that and willing to notice things you might not want to deal with in your partner for the next 60 years is when you'll know you're ready to decide on marriage.

    Then take the next "past la la" mode year and make sure your values mesh, make sure you are willing to deal with each other's families idiosyncracies, discuss the topic of children, and discuss how and whether religion will play a role in your lives as a family. If you can agree to such unromantic and decidedly anti-starry-eyed but very important topics, and can overlook socks on the floor and the toilet paper coming off the roll on the wrong side without making it WWIII, you're ready.

    And you'll have more chance of staying together than your friends who rushed into a big wedding after six months dating and are left looking at each other going "now what?"
     
  14. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I'm not sure how the sex education thread got on the subject of marraige, and how the homosexuality thread got onto the subject of sex education, but if anyone can tell me, please do :).
     
  15. gwaernardel

    gwaernardel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Okay, once again I'm going to re-post TreeCave's statistics that she found because I think they're very relevant. (TreeCave, I'm sorry I'm stealing your figures all over the place. If you're annoyed, let me know.)

    Percent who have not had intercourse by age 20:

    Country -Boys -Girls
    Belgium 61 63
    Netherlands 58 62
    Germany 33 28
    Norway 33 25
    United Kingdom 24 23
    France 9 25
    United States 12 16

    Percent of sexually active single 15 to 19-year olds using birth control:

    Germany 95%
    United Kingdom 92
    Netherlands 88
    Norway 87
    Sweden 79
    Denmark 70
    United States 56

    Teen pregnancies per 1,000 teenagers:

    United States 98.0 (down to 83.6 in 1996, according to a more recent stat)
    United Kingdom 46.6
    Norway 40.2
    Canada 38.6
    Finland 32.1
    Sweden 28.3
    Denmark 27.9
    Netherlands 12.1
    Japan 10.5

    Total teen abortions per 1,000 teenagers:

    United States 44.4
    Norway 21.1
    Sweden 19.6
    Denmark 18.2
    Finland 17.9
    United Kingdom 16.9
    Canada 16.2
    Japan 5.9
    Netherlands 5.5

    I think this really says something about our current system. I also find it weird how incosistent things seem to be throughout the US. I was talking to a friend of mine yesterday who said that in his school they were taught that everyone was having sex and that you should use a condom. There was no stress on abstinence whatsoever.
     
  16. TeeBee

    TeeBee Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 2, 2002
    I'm not sure how the sex education thread got on the subject of marraige, and how the homosexuality thread got onto the subject of sex education, but if anyone can tell me, please do

    [face_laugh] No doubt!

    Sorry, I won't do it again! :eek: ;)
     
  17. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    I find it interesting that a lot of family-planning 'groups' and 'councils' that are anti-abortion also vehemently oppose the teaching of anything other than abstinence-only sex-ed on the grounds that it 'encourages' kids to have sex.

    Exactly. Besides, what encourages kids to have sex, really, is: (a) friends doing it, (b) parents doing it (I mean divorced parents dating, that sort of thing), (c) our culture - every toothpaste ad ending in someone getting kissed, every movie containing an obligatory sex scene, etc. The government is powerless to change that, and it should be. It's up to every one of us to be good examples, and for those of us who can affect the nation's culture, to present something other than "sex is the most important thing in the world". It's just not.

    gwaernardel, go right ahead - I love those stats, and they are relevant in many threads.

    Your example of the no-abstinence class is just as worrying as abstinence only to me.

    Look, the real problem with sex, period, in the US is that a lot of people are having it because they feel compelled to, not because they want to. First of all, hormones are compulsive, not desirous - glands are ordering you to do it. The brain should feel free to have some input in that decision. But what is the brain inundated with? Pressure to do it. Everyone's doing it. The people in movies do it and it looks so pretty and well-choreographed, and everyone always climaxes and no one ever feels empty afterwards. I define promiscuity as doing it under compulsion, not out of desire. If the brain and hormones are united on the subject, and the brain is not succumbing to pressure, you're going to most likely have a healthy sexual encounter or relationship. If there's any degree of compulsion, your odds of healthiness go way down.
     
  18. emilsson

    emilsson Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1998
    People have brought up stats from Sweden in relation to sex ed and since I am a future teacher who will teach those classes I figured I could give some info (I couldn't find any Swede who has already done it).

    We have sex ed three times in Sweden, when kids are at the age of 12, 15 and 17. The first time lies on the coming changes the body undergoes aiming to make them understand it's natural. Sex comes into the picture the second time.

    But the focus lies on consequences, not the act itself.

    Students do learn about different ways to prevent getting pregnant. That includes abstinence, condoms etc. When I had sex ed in school I had a great teacher who didn't say "this is the right way to do it, and that is wrong". Rather, she presented the students with problems, dilemmas and questions that had several possible solutions. The students had to chose one answer and tell why. If one couldn't find an answer that fit with one's opinions there was always a "other solution" option available. Never did the teacher give her opinion, she only asked questions if something seemed unclear and questionable.

    All in all, Swedish sex ed focuses on consequences and responsbility. Students know what happens if one gets pregnant. They are also aware that with a child comes responsibility. Plus students learn to word their opinions. Another thing, sex ed is part of also learning the effects of drug use and alcohol. So all in all, it's basically about learning to take responsibility for one's actions.
     
  19. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    she presented the students with problems, dilemmas and questions that had several possible solutions. The students had to chose one answer and tell why. If one couldn't find an answer that fit with one's opinions there was always a "other solution" option available. Never did the teacher give her opinion, she only asked questions if something seemed unclear and questionable.

    You know, this is critical thinking that she's teaching. "Here is the problem - got any ideas? Well, that sounds good, only it won't work for this reason. Anyone else?" And so on until many options have been weighed and the right or best available ones are found.

    We here in the US teach kids what to think instead of how to think. "Write a paper on why Christopher Columbus was such a wonderful man". The kid who writes that he was a slave trader and a moron who didn't know where he'd sailed to gets an F for not submitting to the teacher's doctrine.

    The reason we don't want to teach kids HOW to think is that we know they may not arrive at our conclusions, and that scares us to death. It makes us question ourselves, and most people just can't handle that, for reasons I can't fathom.
     
  20. emilsson

    emilsson Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1998
    TC, I agree completely. Also, sex ed classes in Sweden are very popular. Students look forward to them. Your points makes me wonder if their popularity relates to students finally having the chance to think critically. To feel that their views suddenly mean something.

    Another thing about this teacher, she managed to make students describe their beliefs with honesty. And that's a great feat considering the mixture of atheists and conservartive christians we had in in our class. Everyone respected everyone. I know it sounds utopian but for a few weeks it was our reality :).
     
  21. gwaernardel

    gwaernardel Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    That's really interesting, emilsson. I really wish that our sexual education were at least somewhat like that. Our class was taught by the Phy Ed teacher, a guy with an announcer voice that looked like Captain Planet. When he said the word "vagina" you could hear it all the way down the hallway. He didn't answer questions and he just laughed nervously when someone said the word "orgasm".

    This reminds me, actually, of a question I was meaning to ask. In your schools were you taught about orgasm at all? I remember hearing nothing about it. It confused me a lot at the time. I had no clue what it was and then I picked up my mom's Cosmo and figured that it must be the single greatest thing that could ever happen to a person. But I think we could get a whole different thread started about how the media treats sex, particularly in females.
     
  22. emilsson

    emilsson Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 5, 1998
    In your schools were you taught about orgasm at all?

    It was probably mentioned. You see, Swedish sex ed functions under the idea that kids at the age of 13 will learn about specific details through magazines. We have the typical magazines that youths read that includes questions about sex. Orgasms and stuff is not left out of the class, the teacher just make sure everyone has a general idea about it.

    In my school sex ed was taught by both the science teacher and the social subjects teacher. The first one discussed the biological aspects and the social subjects teacher (and that's one that taught us critical thinking) focused on the moral aspects. BTW, my science teacher was quite shy. I guess you can imagine what that lead to :).

    Then they did a follow up class right before we graduated from grade school (ie when we were 16 years old).
     
  23. obi-wan-girl

    obi-wan-girl Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    You teach your children not to play with matches, knives, guns, etc. But you also teach them to call 9-1-1 if something does happen.

    Sex ED should be the same way.

    *shrug*
     
  24. WormieSaber

    WormieSaber Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 22, 2000
    Young people should be taught that having those feelings and desires are ok and completely normal. Some parents keep those ideas concerning sex at a hush hush level, which only blocks them off to their own, personal growth. Sex should be spoken of openly, but with normal boundaries, of course. My sexual partner and I discuss everything very openly, which I feel I have my parents to thank for that. They wanted me to think for myself.
     
  25. TreeCave

    TreeCave Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2001
    But I think we could get a whole different thread started about how the media treats sex, particularly in females.

    I almost fell out of my chair a few months ago when I looked up at CNN Headline News at around 2 in the afternoon, and they had the caption: "Women can have two kinds of orgasms - vaginal or clitoral". I thought for a second some sort of media enlightenment had been reached, LOL. But then the doctor being interviewed explained that women who can't reach orgasm are just depressed and need to get on anti-depressants. This is moronic, not only because depression can't explain every sexual dysfunction there is, but also anti-depressants almost invariably make it impossible even for MEN to reach orgasm. (This side effect only lasts about 3 months, but the orgasms after that still aren't as good as they were before the medication.)

    I know I keep mentioning my experiences from the South, but that place is a fascinating petri dish of humanity! A prevalent belief among folks there - up until the 80's, if not later - was that women couldn't enjoy sex, so the nicest thing men could do was to do it as quickly as possible and get it over with for her. This belief has actually resulted in women ending up in the hospital with kidney damage because the women didn't know they needed to be excited first, and penetrating a woman who's not excited can cause serious internal bruising and other damage.

    Now, that level of ignorance is appalling, but thinking back to my "health class" that sort of mentioned STD's and some basic biology (that's all the sex ed they did), they explained all about the male orgasm and its role in pregnancy. But since the female orgasm served no obvious practical purpose, it wasn't even mentioned. I tried to bring it up, and ask if there was a practical purpose for it, and the teacher acted like I'd just said something incredibly lewd. I guess the male orgasm is noble if somewhat naughty, but the female orgasm is vile because it's viewed as pure pleasure? Honestly, Americans need to decide if their Calvinist Puritans or not - what IS our objection to pleasure?

    (By the way, I later read a study which found that the female orgasm has a vaccuum effect on sperm, which makes impregnation more likely.)
     
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