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Abstinence vs. Birth Control Programs

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by shinjo_jedi, Dec 3, 2004.

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  1. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    As far as I know, the older thread on this topic had been locked awhile ago, so I decided to start a new one, with the publicity this subject is getting in the news.

    This thread is to debate what should be As far as I know, the older thread on this topic had been locked awhile ago, so I decided to start a new one, with the publicity this subject is getting in the news.

    This thread is to debate what should be taught in public schools (and what will work better) - abstinence or birth control. I believe abstinence programs were introduced into public schools, but there was quite a bit of false and misleading information in the programs, as found by Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA). These programs were funded by President Bush by receiving $170 million in the current government spending to promote these new programs (more than double what the government was spending in 2001 on these programs). Should the public schools drop the programs on birth control (condoms, etc.) and turn to abstinence - which is the only way to avoid sexually transmitted diseases and other dangers or should they promote 'sex safe' with birth control? I don't want to to be more about what the Church teaches, etc. - but what would be more effective from stopping teenage pregnancies and sexually transmitted, etc.

    In my opinion, I don't think any of us here disagree with trying to promote abstinence, as it is the only way to avoid these incidents - but I'm not sure how effective it would be. Judging from my (public) school experiences, I don't think it's going to be very effective - teenagers have already made up their mind (and know enough) to decide if they want to remain free until marriage or lose their virginity beforehand, that a school's programs won't work as it has been planned to, while birth control might teach them the dangers of unprotected sex (as they would already be doing) to at least prevent these more than what is currently happening. However, that's just my opinion - that abstinence should be taught, as it's the best way, but most teenagers wouldn't listen to the instructor as they would already have made up their mind. I believe that it should be funded for a couple years and see if it really does work on the teenagers and such - and then if it doesn't seem to be working, we'll have to think of something new. :)

    If anyone wishes further information to read up on this topic, here are a couple links I could find from CNN on the subject:

    Abstinence Courses Flawed
    Abstinence Programs Misleading
    Bush Seeks Fund for Abstinence Programs
    Group Says Condoms Limit the Fight
    Verdict On Abstinence-Only Sex Education
     
  2. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Here is the bottom line...

    I teach abstinence in my house, (my wife is really paying attention [face_laugh] ) the school has no right to teach birth control to my nephew, who I am raising.

    Now, I also covered birth control with him...but it was in my context, nobody else's. See, one day (he's 17 today, as a matter of fact) he's gonna do the horizontal monkey dance, and he's gonna need to know. Also, he's had alot of experiances before we got him when he was 15, and we had to clear up some myth's he was believing. (Not the least of which is all girls want it between the 15th and 18th of the month, where do they get this stuff?)

    But it is my responsibility to do the job that frankly tends to be different for each kid. If you teach a group of kids about sex, they will come away with wildly different perspectives on what was taught.
     
  3. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    I'm afraid you are mistaken about this one. Sex and babies and disease is a public policy issue, its a public policy concern.

    I'm afraid the school has every right, in fact, it has a moral duty to educate every child under your roof about sex education, about contraception, and abstinence.

    In today's day and age, this is a matter of life and death, and we need to educate kids ASAP.

    Most public schools begin sex ed in the fourth or fifth grade, in terms of how it works. THen in Junior High sex education is mandatory, as it should be.

    No offense, J-Rod, I'm sure you do a fine job, but all kids need to know everything, we can't take the chance otherwise.
     
  4. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    I agree, if I was raising a son - I probably wouldn't want them learning about birth control from the school or another adult (I would probably allow my child to make his own decisions, seeing as how he probably would make his own decisions despite whatever I taught him). I can see where a lot of parents come from. However, I'm stuck on deciding if it will actually work - because I doubt any teenagers will actually listen, as they have already made up their mind if they're saving themselves for marriage or not.

    I don't agree with birth control being taught openly in public schools, as I think abstinence is the best way to go (the only question is if it will be effective), but rather in private matters - guidance office, etc. if the teenager is already openly engaging in unprotected sex and/or is currently pregnant, then I think they should be taught about birth control, but in private matters of course.

    I think that they should be allowed to at least mention birth control or something to that line, as to at least get the message out there that if you are having unprotected sex, that you need to use some type of birth control - just not have a whole program or such being taught on it (you know the majority of teenagers engage in sexual activity before they graduate high school). I disagree with how they're not even allowed to mention condoms, I think at the end they should at least give a one or two minute speech about if you're not going to choose to save yourself, that you should remain protected, as it's the best way to go.
     
  5. Obi-Wan McCartney

    Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 1999
    Like I said, we just can't take the risk.

    Every school should be REQUIRED to teach about contraception. In my school we were taught everything, along with effectiveness rates. Furthermore, we WERE also told repeatedly that abstinance is the ONLY 100% safe way to go, but otherwise were properly educated about proper methods of birth control.
     
  6. Kimball_Kinnison

    Kimball_Kinnison Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2001
    Every school should be REQUIRED to teach about contraception. In my school we were taught everything, along with effectiveness rates. Furthermore, we WERE also told repeatedly that abstinance is the ONLY 100% safe way to go, but otherwise were properly educated about proper methods of birth control.

    OWM, the primary responsibility for it lies with the parents, not the schools or the government.

    What needs to be taught first, before anything else, is self-discipline, not birth control or abstinence. Without self control and discipline, neither abstinence nor birth control will work.

    However, I do not agree that the government should be forcing that sort of sex ed onto any students. From the biological standpoint, there is nothing wrong with teaching the mechanincs (step by step what happens). However, beyond that, it should be the parents who decide what the child is taught, not the government.

    Kimball Kinnison
     
  7. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    I would probably allow my child to make his own decisions, seeing as how he probably would make his own decisions despite whatever I taught him

    Here's the deal with that, but it involves a truck load of work:

    You have to have a 24 hour accountability for them. You have to know all their friends, and you have to know all their friends parents. And you have to be comfertable with and approve of them. When they are hanging with their friends, you call the parents and make sure they are home and know the behavior you expect from your child.

    As soon as they are old enough, they get a job. Half of their money goes in the bank, 'cause when they turn 18 and graduate they will need money for college or setting up housekeeping. No, they won't live at home unless they are in college so that money gives them options. My daughter left home with over 6,000 dollars in her pocket.

    No car, no cell phone. That gives them too many ways of being where they aren't supposed to be. They can then hang out with or talk to people that you now have no way of knowing about. They use your cell when they need it...you drive them around.

    Now, in order for this to work, you have to spend alot of time with them. Doing what they like to do. (Hey, that is how I found Viva La Bam...what a great show!!!!) They have to enjoy family time, so some of that time has to be spent doing what they want.

     
  8. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    Far, far too controlling, J-Rod. I think a reasonable medium with that idea in mind is fine, and perhaps even favorable, but your method is far too controlling in my view.
     
  9. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Why?
     
  10. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    You have to have a 24 hour accountability for them. You have to know all their friends, and you have to know all their friends parents.

    That's just not realistic if you have introverts for children, particularly strong ones. I'm sure you know good people who are rather private and/or quiet, and they didn't suddenly become that way when they turned 18.

    In general, your model seems too fixed and not able to adapt to specific situations, people and things that come up.
     
  11. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    J-Rod - You have to have a 24 hour accountability for them. You have to know all their friends, and you have to know all their friends parents. And you have to be comfertable with and approve of them. When they are hanging with their friends, you call the parents and make sure they are home and know the behavior you expect from your child.

    I understand that a parent should be active and involved in the life of their child and that the parent should know all of the friends (and to a lesser extent, the parents of these children). When I was a teenager, my mother was this way (and so were the parents of the guys in my 'circle') - all of our mothers were friends with each other and mostly at least were aquaintences with the friends of the girls we hung out with. There needs to be a limit though in raising the child, at least from my viewpoint - you don't want to have too much control and limit their privacy. Despite that our parents were actively involved in all of our lives, did that stop us from making decisions that involve sex, drugs, or alcohol at least once - no, because they can't be with us day and night and teenagers will make their decisions based on what they want to do, despite if you teach them what is right and what is wrong - that, is at least how I see it.

    What I am getting is that abstinence should be taught in all schools, because that is the only way to absolutely protect yourself - but you have to realize that a good majority of the teenagers won't listen to what they have to say and will have made up their minds, already - and that is why you should at least have the option of birth-control as a back-up, to educate the children that are having unprotected sex, but won't come to an adult to seek help. I'm trying to make my stance as clear as possible, as it does tend to waver on what I think should be taught (I'm not the best with presenting myself :) ).
     
  12. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    In general, your model seems too fixed and not able to adapt to specific situations, people and things that come up.

    First of all, not much can come up. Second of all we have clear boundries on what is allowed and what isn't allowed.

    We are consistant as Hell, and when a line is crossed, cause and effect comes into play and the punishment is clear. He knows what it'll be before I even hand it down.

    My nephew is very strong. He is willfull, outgoing, and a very good looking kid. He is the opposide of introverted.

    But I'm gonna let you in on a little secret. Your kids would rather hang with you than with anyone else in the world. So what happens?

    Ya sit there on the couch after a hard day's work and say,"Don't bother me." What do you think is gonna happen?

    See, Zack doesn't have a gameroom with the PS2, x-box and Ganecube...we have that gameroom. Zack doesn't have a basketball hoop in the driveway, we do. Zack doesn't have a membership at the weightroom, we do.

    His friends wanna hang out at our house because I join them in Need For Speed Underground 2 and Tony Hawk Underground 2. We all play basketball in the driveway.

    It ain't easy as I work 50-70 hours, 6-7 days a week.

    It sounds very Brady...but the bond that forms transends anything you will know! Our neibors now know each other because of my wife and I contacting parents and getting to know our kids friends.

    Keep in mind when we got Zack, his GPA was 0.98. That is not a misprint. Now it is 2.83. He has caught up all of his classes and is on track, finally, to graduate with the rest of his class, all while holding a 30 hour a week job. He is no longer doing drugs or drinking. He ain't playin' with the little girlies.

    So don't be so quick to judge what is restictive. Just remember your kids will eat up all the time you give them.
     
  13. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    J-Rod, I just want to say congratulations on taking great care of Zack - that's really something special going on there, in my opinion. :)
     
  14. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    [face_blush]

    The rewards are much more than the work...

     
  15. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    I can only imagine ;) I just like hearing that you're one of the adults that will play Tony Hawk 2 with their children and friends - now that's what I like. My best friend's father is like that - he'll typically play Madden 2005 with us (and takes my best friend and I to rock concerts). My mother doesn't exactly do that, but most of my friends that are girls adore my mother - she works at a department store once a week (to get the huge discount ;) ) and a couple of my friends work with her (and now when they call my house, they want to talk to her...).
     
  16. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    As long as the authority role comes first, a parent can enjoy their time with their children as they would their own friends.

    Don't get me started about Tuesday nights wuth my daughter. Buffy The Vampire Slayer and YM Magazine. Demasculating? Sure, but she still calls me every Sunday just to talk and she's 20, living in Idaho.
     
  17. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Yes, I agree on the authority role. My mother, for example, is very protective of me - she typically has to know who I am with at all times, who will be there, what parents will be there, etc. to the point where it's annoying (at least to me). A few years ago I was at a friend's house to spend the night where a couple of the guys that were there (there's typically around 10 and we split our time between Halo 2 and Poker) there decided to drink (I wasn't one of them) - I won't begin to describe the stroke that my mother nearly had when she found out (long story). ;)
     
  18. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Did she trust that you didn't drink?

    'Cause that would be the trick. I tell Zack a line from President Regan,"Trust, but verify." As long as he knows he is being checked on he tows the line.
     
  19. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    Yeah, she knew that I didn't drink that night. To make a long story short, another one of my guy friends (who's best friends with all of our mothers) found out and told one of the mothers that there was drinking there that night - and who was involved, etc. and I wasn't one of them, so he didn't say that I did. She's just like that, where she was really upset that I was there (she was happy that I didn't drink that night though). I didn't get punished - except that next time I asked to go over to that house (which was around six months later) she was extremely worried. Why one of us told that friend is beyong me, but who knows ;)
     
  20. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Good parenting, IMO.

    Sounds like you've had an excellant childhood.
     
  21. AnakinsGirl

    AnakinsGirl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2001
    i think birth control/contraception should be taught. not only is it more realistic, but because abstinence untill marriage programs completely alienate homosexual, transsexual, and bisexual students because obviously, they can't get married. i think homosexuality is a very real issue and needs to be addressed by schools, and these people need to be acknowledged.
    there is even a program that outright rejects that dr. kinsey's beliefs that behaviors such as incest homosexuality, adult-child sex, etc are normal--not that i'm saying all of them are, but associating homosexuality with behaviors that are illegal and wrong point to some very serious problems in sex ed class.
    gays have sex, too! if preventing STDs and pregnancy were so important, they would be able to come up with a program that could involve the gay students as well. if it's important for straight kids to know the risks involved with sex, shouldn't gay kids know too?

    bah. that's why i think contraception/birth control should be addressed more directly, and not abstinence-only since it is simply unrealistic. it doesn't mean that they shouldn't advocate abstinence in their programs, but i think the christian president we have telling people just not to have sex until they're married because jesus says so completely alienates most teenagers in general, but especially a large group of people that simply have not been given the kind of recognition they should have.

    end.
     
  22. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    gays have sex, too! if preventing STDs and pregnancy were so important, they would be able to come up with a program that could involve the gay students as well. if it's important for straight kids to know the risks involved with sex, shouldn't gay kids know too?

    The confusing question you asked is precisely the reason it should be taught at home. To be honest, the gay people I know have had a more relaxed and open repore with their parents reguarding sex that other kids. Just my expiriance.
     
  23. shinjo_jedi

    shinjo_jedi Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 21, 2002
    AnakinsGirl, I do like the point that you brought up regarding homosexuals and what should be taught to them - as they can't be married so abstinence isn't really any option for them, as they would never 'see the light at the end of the tunnel' for lack of a better phrase. It's a very real issue - and should be addressed, although I'm not exactly sure how. I'd typically go with until you're in a 'committed relationship', seeing as how that's the best way to put it (a marriage relationship without the marriage license).
     
  24. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    I tend to favor the teaching of sex ed courses in school, and strongly favor the teaching of birth control methods, with abstinence as one option among many. One reason for this is public health. Another is pertinence; there is perhaps no time where sexuality is more central to a person's life than those adolescent years. (From what I've heard. I'm not so far past the pubescent phase myself.) I should note that such a class shouldn't be all physical stuff. I would make it a class that looked at the complex issue of human sexuality from a biological and psychological standpoint -- let teenagers learn and talk about what's going on in their minds, not just their bodies.

    I oppose failing to teach about birth control for two reasons. One is that I don't think an abstinence-only program will change anybody's mind. I think some students will choose abstinence, and some (about 75 or 80% by the end of high school, I believe) will choose to have sex, and a little high school class isn't apt to change that. Thus, it's a public health problem to think that children who don't get sufficient information at home might not have sufficient knowledge about STDs and pregnancy and how to protect themselves.

    I have another reason for favoring teaching birth control, though. It's undeniably relevant to the subject of the class, and is an important issue. Failing to teach it demonstrates an ideological bias, which is something I feel is inappropriate in school. (Teaching it, on the other hand, demonstrates no bias; you're saying that students can choose to have sex or not and can choose to use birth control or not.) Now, it's true that there's not time to teach absolutely everything on the planet in a given class; decisions have to be made. In most cases, though, it's possible to make decisions based on relevance, importance, and reputability. This topic is no exception; obviously, in today's world, protection is extremely relevant and important to the idea of having sex.

    Failing to teach birth control would be like teaching Intro to Government without reference to Communism for fear students will become Mao-reading revolutionaries.

    The point is that the school should not take a side at all. It should explain all the advantages and pitfalls of sexual activity, and all the benefits and disadvantages of various forms of protection including abstinence, and all the scientific, psychological, and cultural issues involved in the development and maturation of humans as sexual beings. But it should be taking no sides for or against sex, for or against birth control, etc. The school is there to teach, not to push an ideological agenda.

    -Paul
     
  25. DarthBreezy

    DarthBreezy Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 4, 2002
    The only problem with your methodology J-Rod, is that a lot of parents aren't willing or able to be as hands on as you are with your nephew, nor as consistant with their well meaning plans. You see 12 year olds with cell phones, kids who view driving as a right not a privlage, and many parents who just won't take responsibilty.

    I learned about the basics of biology in high school and the morality of sex at home, but I really don't think telling kids 'abstinace only' is the way to go.

    Teach them about birth control and STD's in school - with a healthy lesson about self repect, and morality at home. To be fore warned is fore armed.
     
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