Academy Awards and Star Wars

You're being pedantic and facetious, Darth-Stryphe. Loco was coming on strong. I am a good speller; that's a basic typo (the "m" and "n" keys are next to each other). I am quite sure how to spell "erroneous", thank you very much. As for your own typos... well... I won't go there.

 

Sequels and prequels typically do not do better than originals (q.v. law of diminishing returns). The academy does like originality and Lucas checked out of that competition after Star Wars (1977), which did great at the Oscars.

Sometimes I wonder what people want here: automatic Oscars for all categories for anything Lucas submits? He has done very well by the Academy: 7 Oscars for Star Wars, nominations for Best Picture and Best Director, multiple awards for ESB, and nominations for RotJ, and Raiders of the Lost Ark... They hardly hate him. They gave him a lifetime achievement award, what do you guys really want? The PT didn't do so well bcause it wasn't new and it had very bad acting and writing in the opinion of the vast majority of film goers (not merely critics). Yes we love it here, because we are STAR WARS FANS. It's ok. Star Wars has done very well by the Academy!

 

All true.

Not me. And not anyone I can think of. Maybe you'd like to put some names to your strawman accusations in the future?

I'm not sure why it has to be an issue of hate. I see it more as the Academy being the Academy. Lucas has been well decorated -- but that's beside the point. The full name of the Academy is "The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences". They should consistently and continuously be recognising and awarding those films, directors, artists and technicians that meet the highest standards of innovation and excellence every year. That's the ideal; the reality is very different.

With all due respect, in the opinion of the vast majority of film goers, I am confident that all six films have "very bad acting and writing". "Star Wars" has never been revered for either aspect; in fact, it has often been parodied and demeaned. I find your "not merely critics" comment even more dubious; a quick glance at the scores for each prequel on "Rotten Tomatoes" reveals scores of 63%, 66% and 82% respectively (drawn from reviews totalling 142, 201 and 234 respectively). I think it is fair to say that the originals are more beloved, and arguably better films (that's my opinion; certainly with respect to ANH and TESB), but the immense disparity you seem to be implying doesn't, I don't think, exist.

Are you lumping yourself and your bashing friends in there? Coulda fooled me.

If you're a fan of something, it stands to reason that you'll be more prepared to embrace an aspect of that something than the average person, but by the same measure, fans can also be more prejudiced and unforgiving. It cuts both ways.

You present this as if it's a blinding revelation. It isn't. Nor is it apropos, in any way, shape or form, to the issue of awarding, or not awarding, those most deserving of such awards in every given year. Personally, I think to only see one nomination for "Revenge of the Sith", especially when "Return of the King" (a not very superior picture, in my opinion, and arguably an inferior one) won eleven, is shambolic. Then again, in a manner of speaking, the Academy fumbled with "Fellowship of the Ring", so it's not like Peter Jackson and his team didn't get glossed over, if only initially. The Academy is like a bent hammer. Occasionally, it hits the right nail, but more often than not, its aim is a little off.

 

hate:

"Much of it is political because Hollywood hates Lucas."

"The Oscars are a joke"

Just from this thread. If I went back to all the threads after all the PT's losses in various awards shows you would see hundreds of such post Cryogenic.

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There are people here with such views, yes, but you attempted lumping the majority in with your earlier statement: "Sometimes I wonder what people want here: automatic Oscars for all categories for anything Lucas submits?"

Incidentally, only the former quotation you pulled up fully supports your view; the latter, which is a generalised sneer against the Academy, is something even I agree with.


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ENOUGH! You have both broken the cardinal rule of the Saga forum. Never attack the person, attack the argument. I will NOT tolerate personal attacks of any kind in the Saga forum. If you have problems with each other, take it offsite.

 

I wish to point out that I have had a very long dissatisfaction with the Academy and it is not just due to Star Wars although, Star Wars not winning Best Picture was the beginning of that dissatisfaction. And no, I for one do not think that every thing George does should automatically get nominated. Where did that one come from???

I bought a book way back in the 80?s entitled ?Where Oscar got it wrong? It's a Great read!! I think they need to do a reissue to cover the last 20 years, if they have not already done so.

They should consistently and continuously be recognising and awarding those films, directors, artists and technicians that meet the highest standards of innovation and excellence every year. That's the ideal; the reality is very different.

Spot on!!! Instead, it?s more based on ?What is popular this year??, ?What is the social trend this year??, ?What is political correct this year??, ?Who behaved themselves the best this year?? and of course the all too familiar "Oops, who have we neglected or ignored"

With all due respect, in the opinion of the vast majority of film goers, I am confident that all six films have "very bad acting and writing". Star Wars" has never been revered for either aspect

Amen! As much as I love all things Star Wars, this constant insinuation that the bad acting and writing only commenced with the PT, or ROTJ for that matter, is ridiculous in my opinion, and getting very tired

 

Fellowship of the Ring was the best LOTR movie I think & should of won what Return of the King did.
It was pathetic to see them give Jackson all those awards to make up for ignoring the first two movies.
SW got screwed. TPM & AOTC should of won best costume. You?d have to be blind not to nominate them. & costumes have nothing to do with acting & dialogue. A film can be G-d awful & still have great costumes.

The last few years they seem to be awarding movies that agree with their political/moral biases. Michael More, Million Dollar Baby, Syriana, Crash ect.
There is this idea that movie is only a ?real? movie if it wacks you over the head with it?s message. The SW movies have messages in them but they are so general that everybody can take what they want from them. Palpys rise to power is based on ww1 & 2 & ancient Rome which means that the PT wont be out of date five years from now.

Rebel Without a Cause got nominated but missed out & so did American Graffiti ? does this mean they are sub par movies? Of corse not. It doesn?t matter what the Academy thinks. Its what the people like that matters. If a movie is really good & people continue to watch it for years and years the critics realise they are fighting a battle they cannot win & change their opinion to suit the masses & before you know it the films a classic!
It?s gutless but if critics had guts they would be doing something else.

 

Well, I'm sure the Academy felt ROTK was the best movie of the year, having given it all the trophies it was nominated for.

Yes, Sir Alec was indeed nominated for an Academy Award...back in 1978...

Alas, Sir Alec was not in the Prequels, so unlike LOTR, they did not have Oscar-caliber performances throughout. With LOTR, you had McKellan deliver performances just as strong as the first, which was nominated for an Academy Award, so by the time ROTK rolled around, we were clearly in for more of the same top-notch acting the Academy likes.

That wasn't the case with the Prequels though. Not one actor or actress was even considered for a nomination, and sadly, none of them really deserved one, according to the Academy.

Well, not only my opinion, but that of the Academy's, which is the point of this thread.

Well, why else would the Academy give a film a nomination when they don't feel it deserves one?

Like Qui-gon's funeral theme being played over Padme's procession, without any significant change except a looping. There's also the credits sequence, which is usually a recap of musical themes and is still a part of the score even though it plays at the end of the movie. You have the Throne Room theme playing as well as Leia's theme even though there is no relevence to them in the film whatsoever. They are played verbatim as they were twenty plus years ago, there's no significant change, nor is there a "fresh" twist to them. They're just music played to take up time. Not only that, but the score ends with the same exact flourish as Return of the Jedi, an unoriginal way to end a score.

Except for Battle of the Heroes, there's nothing in the score that truly jumps out at the viewer in general. Anakin's Betrayal is nothing more than background music, there's nothing really distinctive about it, and the theme played for Luke and Leia's birth is a little too Harry Potter-ish. That theme doesn't resonate well enough to be included into the ending credit medley.

In short, I would say ROTS was John Williams' weakest score. Certainly not deserving of an Oscar, much less a nomination, even less having his name attached to it.

So, instead of giving this supposedly influencial character in the Saga her own theme,

 

Well, I'm sure the Academy felt ROTK was the best movie of the year, having given it all the trophies it was nominated for.

That wasn't the case with the Prequels though. Not one actor or actress was even considered for a nomination, and sadly, none of them really deserved one, according to the Academy.
Loco_for_Lucas

Well shoot my brains out and call me Paris!

To follow you?re logic Loco Empire Strikes Back must be a piece of ****.

 

Well, for the Academy, they probably didn't feel it was worth a Best Picture nod, but at least they felt it had qualities worth rewarding; it got a nomination for musical score and effects, which is more than they could say of ROTS.

 

I'm a HUGE Star Wars fan. First movie I ever saw. I never read LOTR growing up. That said, the LOTR movies are vastly better in almost every way than Star Wars. The only Star Wars film that might have contended for a Best Picture Oscar would've been ESB. But back then, Sci-Fi wasn't taken as seriously.

First of all, Lucas has admitted to disliking the writing prossess. Editting is really his forte. Whereas LOTR was created by someone who LOVED writing. Writing was Tolkien's passion and so the LOTR movies had a better foundation to start with. Star Wars is Lucas's "Life's work", but the writing was only a small part of that. Whereas, LOTR was Tolkien's "Life's work"; the culmination of all of his writing.

Also, I think the quality of acting in LOTR was better overall than the PT. That said, I think Ian McDiarmid is the most unappreciated actor of our time. And I also think that Ewan McGregor was overlooked. But each prequel had four, maybe five, great performances. On the other hand, each LOTR movie had DOZENS of great performances.

Now it has to be noted that GL actually paved the way for LOTR's success. Without Star Wars and all of the technology that GL has pioneered (ILM, Pixar, THX, Skywalker Sound, etc...) there would be no LOTR.

So I look at LOTR's as the Son reaping the rewards from the hard work of the father (Star Wars)and subsequent the opportunities that were created as a result.

 

I'm only slightly 'taken aback' by the movie "Crash" mentioned in there (I agree with the other movies being listed 100%). Is it that "Crash" was too 'PC friendly' AND OR that it 'whacks audiences over the head with it's message'?

 

Of course, but is it necessarily 'wrong'?

I would assume then, that you felt the same way about "The Immolation Scene"......

So then, I guess the critical and academical "failure" of the PT is one of 'degree' when it's compared to the 'mighty' ESB.....

Cryogenic, I too was impressed with the rendition of the "Force Theme" at the beginning of ROTS. Though, I admit, I was sort of hoping for the "Throne Room" music to be used in the actual movie itself , maybe like a 'heroe's welcome' type thing when Obi-Wan and Anakin return to Coruscant 'triumphantly' with the Chancellor.

 

I'm only slightly 'taken aback' by the movie "Crash" mentioned in there (I agree with the other movies being listed 100%). Is it that "Crash" was too 'PC friendly' AND OR that it 'whacks audiences over the head with it's message'

TOSCHISTATION

RACISM IS BAD!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!!!!! I never knew racism was bad!!!! Who would of guessed?


Well, for the Academy, they probably didn't feel it was worth a Best Picture nod, but at least they felt it had qualities worth rewarding; it got a nomination for musical score and effects, which is more than they could say of ROTS

Loco_for_Lucas

And ROTS got a makeup nomination

 

I hear ya.

 

I dunno, is it?

It didn't really move me, and I didn't find the music wasn't memorable, so yeah, I would say I felt the same about the Immolation Scene. There's nothing in the Prequels that "leaves you humming" later on. You have the iconic themes from the original: The Main/Luke's Theme, the Rebellion Theme, the Imperial March, Leia's Theme, the Romance Theme, the Emperor's Theme, and so on. Even the Ewok Theme leaves one whistling it afterwards. There's nothing in the Prequels that's as memorable, even after multiple watchings. Except for Duel of the Fates, there's nothing in the Prequels that leaves that kind of impression.

Sorry, but can you explain that a little further? I don't exactly get what you mean.

I agree. The militant Force theme was very well done, but come on, that one bit isn't enough to save the rest of the score.

They could have worked a version of the Throne Room theme into the film, and I like your idea of Palpatine welcoming the heroes back. If anything, they could have used it in a huge gala ceremony to celebrate Anakin, to REALLY feed his ego and show how far Palpatine was willing to go in rewarding Anakin. In reality, such a thing would be a tiny gesture to Palpatine, but for Anakin, it would mean the world and more.

Given that, I must say, I was impressed with William's use of the UPBEAT version of the Emperor's theme at the end of Phantom Menace. I honestly thought that was brilliant on Williams' part, it conveys so much, one it shows the jovial nature of the victory on the surface, but underneath that we see it is truly a victory for Palpatine as he has gotten the Chosen One into his clutches and everyone still thinks he's the good guy that made it to the top. In essence, they're unknowingly celebrating an evil occurance disguised as a joyous event.

I always thought Phantom Menace was the best made Prequel, and in many regards, I put it ahead of Return of the Jedi. It's the only movie from the Prequels that I think Lucas truly focused on and wish he had made the rest in that vein.

 

Lordy, BEST MAKEUP! What an achievement! Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

Excuse me!

How dare you insult the people who worked hard to create the makeup for Star Wars.
Is makeup not a good enough nomination? Is it an inferior skill?

The make up artists - and yes they are artists- made Hayden look crispy & like Shaw. They made Ian look like Palpy & did countless other extras.
Do they deserve nothing but insults? Would you say that to their face?



There's nothing in the Prequels that's as memorable, even after multiple watchings. Except for Duel of the Fates, there's nothing in the Prequels that leaves that kind of impression. Loco


All I can do is laugh

 

Heavens no, I'm an avid airbrusher who dabbles in latex makeup. I have extreme respect for for makeup artists, but please, behind Best Picture, Best Director, Best Actor/Actress, Best Supporting Actor/Actress, Best Musical Score, Best Special Effects, after all of those, make up is a distant...hmmm...distant seventh, with THAT being the best the Prequel franchise has done, it's not exactly a strong point for the Prequels. Not even John Williams' score pulled through. He needs more than simple name recognition, just like Lucas, to get through. And Williams is capable of more, and better, but was, hmmm, underachieving with these new Star Wars movies.

As it is, Lucas doesn't really respect the artisans who make his work come to life, so the fact we do, is showing a great deal of respect, moreso than Lucas would twenty years from now.

By all means, laugh away.

 

What I meant was is that judging by the criteria given here, even the 'mighty' ESB was a 'failure' in terms of not being nominated for 'Best Picture'. Then ROTJ and the PT (and especially AOTC and ROTS) would be 'failures' only by a measure of degree in comparison to the popularly and critically 'untouchable' ESB.

So then, by these standards, the only 'winner' in Star Wars is ANH.








Regards,

Steven

 

By those standards, yeah, that's true.

 

The makeup was among the poorer ones in any big budget film i have seen recently. For instance in Padme's death scene you can clearly see the beauty makeup on her since digital video is so clear, and even Sidious' is clearly plasticy and fake looking. The Anakin burn makeup was fabulous of course. I think a nomination was a fair assessment.

I thought William's score was pretty good but seeing as there were only a few innovations in it i can understand why it was ignored (not that i necessarily agree with it). I think the only category where the prequels were treated unfairly is in the costume department, which is easily among the most lavish ever seen in a motion picture--moreso for Episode I i suppose, but i think a nomination should have been given to II and III as well.

Anyways, the notion that "the Academy hates Lucas for [insert political reason]" is bogus seeing as all the lifetime achievment awards and subsequent post-ANH honorings his films have received. The Academy ignored the prequels because they simply didn't like them, and with all the criticism the films recieved it shouldn't be surprising. If you look at the prequels each film recieved less nominations than the one before it--i think its a sign that the Academy was simply becoming bored with the films. "Oh, another Star Wars? What else is out?"