BTS According to Gary Kurtz...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. fett 4 Chosen One

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    It's a 9year, thats not a good man that's a good boy. Which time by the next film they had to change actor and character without any development, as opposed to say Luke from ANH to battle scarred veteran in ESB.

    He'd already confessed to killing women and children and liking fascist dictatorships long before he lost his arm. That is losing humanity more than an arm.
    We never see him become a Jedi Knight or his training or his friendship with Obi-wan, though it tries to cover by giving an after thought elevator scene and a quick discussion in SIth, they then change around his entire motivation for turning to the darkside! These should be the important moments but they were ignored.

    I think he is a static character primarily from what I see on screen. And yes it does contradicts "when I first knew him he was a great pilot and I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi etc
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  2. Game3525 Force Ghost

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    How in the hell did they change it his motives? All we know from the OT is that Vader was a young Jedi seduced by the Dark Side that helped the Emperor hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights, it is fairly vague. And those points are fairly irrelevant and pointless, we don't need to see Skywalker training and becoming a Knight, it is irrelevent and the only important tidbit that needed to be address was his impatience with Kenobi's training and methods, which AOTC makes clear early on in the story. IMO, I thought Anakin's relationship with Obi-Wan was handle fine. They go from bickering father-son relationship that spent way too much time with each other in AOTC to a brotherly relationship strengthen by the hardships of war in ROTS.

    And again, Qui-Gon discovering Anakin did not contradict anything since Kenobi never said he discovered him. When he did meet him he was already a great pilot(Anakin did destroy the the main Federation command ship and there is the pod-race) and he did take it upon himself to train him as a Jedi(against Yoda's wishes.)
  3. fett 4 Chosen One

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    What we know is also that he was a powerful Jedi who had much anger in him, who was consumed by they darkside. We know he was a good man who was destroyed and who has a inner conflict and tiny spark of good still in him. We know he was a good friend. We even have from Vader that Obi-wan even thought like Luke at 1 time.

    We need to see his hopes and fears and not just simply as a pysco who whines to much. Again the PT never really went into Anakin that deeply.

    What's all this about spending to much time with each other, 1 quick scene in an elevator added in post production does not constitute too much time. After they spend most of the film seperate and bitch about each other behind the others back.
  4. Game3525 Force Ghost

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    The PT pretty much showed everything that we knew about Skywalker that the OT highlighted. The PT did show Anakin as a powerful Jedi who was quick to anger, it did show him as a good person who was plagued by a fatal flaw, and it did that he was a good friend to Kenobi. They even showed Obi-Wan thinking like Luke when he did try to reason with Vader on Mustafar, all of that is pretty much shown in the PT.

    We did see his hopes and fears in the PT. His hopes were to be a Jedi and have the ability to make a difference in people's lives and his fears was not being able to control outcomes he did not like.

    Han Solo and Luke Skywalker are good friends and they barely interact with each other after ANH. The amount of scenes is irrelevant, the important aspect is the interactions in those scenes. AOTC makes it very clear that they are good friends who have spent way too much time together. Yes, they bicker and argue a lot......but friends tend to do that.
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  5. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I think you've got your wires a bit crossed there, the storyline Kurtz refers to never even made its way to a treatment, let alone a draft. What he talks about were vague ideas maybe being thrown around in 1978 & 1979, and his description of Vader's redemption is very different, although he makes no mention of how or whether he even dies.

    GL's 1981 rough draft was, for all intents & purposes, just an earlier version of what we did end up with, and still much the same as the ROTJ Gary Kurtz maligns - there's Ewoks, Leia is Luke's sister, Han doesn't die, Luke doesn't wander off at the end, etc. Kurtz would have the exact same objections to it had it been made.
  6. fett 4 Chosen One

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    Lets just leave it as is, I could provide a dozen examples and you would never agree with me or visa versa and we would be going round in circles
  7. fett 4 Chosen One

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    I thought the ST was meant to be ghost Vader tagging along with his son to find his missing daughter/sister, was that in those draughts ?

    Arghh I see now. Like I said the Ewoks should have been kept as Wookies, was that Kurtz objection or did he not want Wookies either ?

    I agree and always have about Luke and Leia being related, I thought it was a bad idea then (not least cause of there previous kissing) and still do now, highlighted by that poorly done scene where Leia shocked and appaled that Vader is Luke's father too seconds later "somehow I'v always known" when she finds out he's her's too!

    I can see why he wanted Han killed off as his arc was pretty much done and Lando was getting a very similar arc on top of that, while it's no secret that Ford had enough, but I can understand how unfreezing a guy just to kill him off would be a bit silly, specially after the great ESB moment, maybe they should have left him hanging on Jabba's wall and used his rescue for E9 perhaps?

    As for Luke, him looking for his sister or trying to rebuild the Jedi order can both have him wandering around without becoming the Man with no name in space.
  8. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    No, Kurtz was the one getting his wires crossed there, the hidden Skywalker sister (not Leia) was mentioned in the first draft of ESB - by the ghost of Luke's dead father (Leigh Brackett's - http://starwarz.com/starkiller/category/star-wars-scripts/the-empire-strikes-back-star-wars-scripts/).
    Vader wasn't Luke's father at that point, and to make matters even more confusing, there wasn't a 'Sequel Trilogy' either, it was envisioned as a 12-part ongoing series largely about Luke & co. It's quite possible that later episodes would have followed Luke searching for his sister, and probably would have, but that's not the Episodes VII-IX most have heard about.

    The rough draft of ROTJ can be found here - http://starwarz.com/starkiller/category/star-wars-scripts/return-of-the-jedi-star-wars-scripts/. It's quite strange, but like I said, it's much the same as the final version in terms of what actually happens, plot-wise.
    I don't actually know when the Wookiees in ROTJ were changed to Ewoks, I imagine it was very early in the development, say, 1980/1981. The entire subplot was recycled from the first draft of SW, anyway, it's quite likely the Wookiees were turfed immediately, when it occurred to GL or someone else that they'd been established as technologically advanced enough to pilot starships.
    Just how involved Gary Kurtz was at that point is something I've never been able to find a clear answer on, I'm hoping Rinzler's book on ROTJ will clarify matters.

    The thread stickied at the top of the page has a link to a Google document I put together which gives an outline of just how much the vision of the Star Wars Saga changed, particularly between 1977 & 1983. It's not surprising that the likes of Gary Kurtz, Mark Hamill & even GL himself often get confused when talking about what was "originally meant to happen".
  9. fett 4 Chosen One

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    That's interesting. Have to say I am glad Vader didn't go in the lava (again !?) as the un-masking was one of the most emotional and best scene's in the OT not just the film.
  10. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    No arguments there, the scene is easily one of my favourites, & executed perfectly. The dialogue, the music, the performances - fantastic.

    Give the rough draft a read, though - it's downright silly at times when it comes to how the Jedi fit in, but Vader's quite a different character early on.
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  11. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 9, 2009
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    Ok. Didn't know about Leonard MaItin's convention interview, thanks. (Don't know much about conventions in fact...). Most interesting.

    I guess you're right.

    I was indeed thinking about what seems to come from the early 90's : Rule of Two, Anakin's social origins and slavehood, the prophecy of the Chosen One, how and why he turns to the Dark Side (pact with the Devil's arc to save the one he loved), Palpatine purely evil politically from the beginning and directly behind the Clone Wars, a civil war instead of an external threat etc....And last, but not least, Mother Skywalker's fate and death !!! :cool: (most itching issue to me).

    It's most likely, like you mention and Zombie concurs in his book too, that he started from scratch when crafting the PT synopsis in 1992-1993. Thus making it even more relevant to wonder what could have been if he had written it sooner, at another time of his career and life.
    I tend to think it wouldn't have been much different in the end, as some way or another, those kind of ideas and interest must have been floating around in his mind for some time before.

    But we'll never know for sure until either the original 1979-1983 prequel "outline" is revealed, or Lucas answers directly to that specific point. Now I get the feeling George's really fade up answering questions again and again about Star Wars for some 35 years now... It's good to keep a little mystery hanging sometimes.

    I doubt that this year's MOROTJ by J.Rinzler will provide any relevant info on this.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 18, 2013
  12. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    It'd be nice to think that something might be revealed, but yeah, I doubt it, too - simply because I don't believe there was all that much back then anyway, other than what we've already seen.

    Two of the ideas which were thrown out just occurred to me - Owen being Obi-Wan's brother, and Mother Skywalker fleeing to Alderaan with Leia. Both are mentioned in the script, not just the novelisation of ROTJ.
    For all we know, that might be all the other ideas there were.
  13. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Yes.

    Somehow, I couldn't bring myself to buy this one about Owen being Obi-Wan's brother, although it was on the script and in the novel. Always seemed weird and unbelievable to me...Don't know why.

    Mother Skywalker fleeing to Alderaan with Leïa, and dying some time after, is really the one I was so eager to see fulfilled. Thought it was really tragic and emotional at the time. It kind of added a touch of drama to the backstory ending, though hard to tell on-screen actually. Like Lucas probably did way back I suspect....

    So sad he had throw this one out, only to have her unconvincingly dying of a broken heart with Leïa being only...1 minute of age. Definitely the weakest plotpoint of ROTS.
    Last edited by Ord-Mantell70, Feb 18, 2013
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Killing wholesale due to rage is not a sign of losing one's humanity. In fact, it's a very human thing to do. Humanity can be monstrous, as well as wonderful.




    The idea of Obi-Wan being Owen Lars' brother never sat right with me when I saw ROTJ. Obi-Wan never expressed any emotions toward Owen and Beru's deaths. Yet, he practically had to control his disappointment when Luke initially rejected his offer to train as a Jedi. And he seemed more emotional toward Luke and the people of Alderaan than he ever did toward the Lars couple.

    As for Padme fleeing to Alderaan with Leia . . . this did not sit right with me, as well. I could see Padme dividing the twins for their safety. I could NOT SEE her accompanying one twin, while leaving the other with Owen and Beru. Padme choosing one child over the other to be with? No way! She would either separate the twins and stay away from both of them, take both of them with her to some far flung system, or die after giving birth to them. Apparently Lucas chose the latter in ROTS.
    Last edited by DRush76, Feb 21, 2013
  15. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

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    I have always been intrigued about what could have been. However, for whatever reason Lucas changed his mind and I am fine with what we got.
  16. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I didn't find out about the Owen-as-Obi-Wan's-brother twist until the mid-1990s, when I rediscovered SW (I never read the novel back in the day). At the time it sort of made sense, largely because with virtually nothing known about Anakin's actual background beyond the falsehoods Obi-Wan told Luke, I had the impression that he was never from Tatooine anyway, so why not have Obi-Wan being the one from Tatooine? Who better to look after Anakin's offspring than his own kin, while he keeps an eye on things from a distance in a familiar environment?
    As far as his lack of emotion concerning Owen & Beru's deaths, that never occurred to me, but it's quite obvious that if they were brothers, Owen & Obi-Wan were very estranged from each other.

    However, when one goes back to the original pre-Father Vader conception, it's quite clear that Luke's father was a Tatooine native (while Obi-Wan probably wasn't), with a brother named Owen. So when it was decided that Vader was Luke's father, it may have been the case that GL decided to give the Tatooinian heritage & family to Obi-Wan instead - he may have had somewhat different ideas for Anakin/Vader's background at the time.
    Of course, he went back to the original idea after all, which works fine, as Owen's fraternal relationship with Obi-Wan didn't make it into the films anyway.
  17. fett 4 Chosen One

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    As for Owen I can see making him Anakin's step brother a good idea. I just think it might have been a good idea to have had them spend more than just 5 mins together

    I agree with you on Padme for different reason's. As a main charachter having her simply die off screen would just not be a good filmaking decison.
  18. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Why? AOTC wasn't about Anakin and Owen. And it's obvious that Obi-Wan left Luke in the care of the Lars, due to Anakin's connection to Cliegg via Shmi, not Owen. And they did spend more than 5 minutes together.

    And both Hayden Christensen and Joel Edgerton pretty much made it clear that Anakin and Owen really didn't care for one another.
    Last edited by DRush76, Mar 6, 2013
  19. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    I always thought it felt kind of random (not sure exactly when I read the ROTJ novel, probably the same timeframe as you did) and just thrown into what was a fine novelization. It's just...it was never brought up even in the incredibly patchwork ANH novel, which is home to all manner of strange ideas ( :p )and it's not so much as hinted at on-screen in ANH.

    Glad they cut it, personally.
  20. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I do think it was an early attempt at rationalising the newly created backstory of Luke's father, rather than a particularly important development of the characters of Owen & Obi-Wan themselves, but it did turn out to be completely unnecessary.

    Actually, I think Owen's disparaging attitude when referring to Obi-Wan works perfectly well in the context of them being estranged brothers. It's much the same as how lines like "That's what I'm afraid of" and Obi-Wan's hesitation when talking about how Luke's father died somehow work in hindsight, despite them not necessarily being performed with such plot developments in mind at all.
  21. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Eh, but those second two are far more specific, plus of course they have the advantage of later material to make them click properly. There obviously wasn't space for that with Owen and Obi-Wan being brothers, as both of them were dead by the point it became a thing.

    Plus Owen's belligerent attitude, well, you needn't be related to not like some guy who's trying to lure off your main source of accomplishing menial household tasks :p
    Last edited by DarthBoba, Mar 6, 2013
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  22. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    And someone's father needn't have turned into Darth Vader for his uncle to be afraid for him.;)

    They didn't go with the Owen/Obi-Wan thing anyway, I just felt that it might have worked if they had - when I first found out about it, I was still under the impression that everything really had been worked out in the early 1970s, so my reaction was "Oh really?" as opposed to "That doesn't work, they should change it (back)."
  23. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Yeah, my reaction was "well...okay." Just seemed weirdly shoved into what was otherwise a veritable buffet table of Obi-Wan feeling chatty...if they ever redo the OT novels, that chapter could well grow into an entire summarization of the prequels and not feel out of place at all.
  24. T-R- Chosen One

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    Kurtz "outline" is something that he thought was the story based on story conferences when Brackett was involved. It is clear, that as of the final script for TESB, Lucas' outline was completely different and what he wanted. The sister in another part of the galaxy and the Emperor in IX was dropped when Anakin became Vader.
  25. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Pretty much - most of the Kurtz vision seems to date from ideas tossed around in 1978 & 1979, although I think he added the later idea of Han dying in an Imperial raid after he heard about it, as it seems to date from 1981 (at which time Kurtz was out of the picture).

    Kurtz's accounts tend to be very similar to Mark Hamill's, in the sense that they both pick and choose from their own memories and public knowledge, then construct these 'visions' based around what they seem to think would be best, as well as what seems to make sense to them. Unfortunately, the constantly changing overall vision means that their accounts contradict themselves, or established information.

    The main contradictions occur when they refer to ideas from the 12-film plan and try to fit them into the 9-ep trilogy of trilogies, as the 9-ep plan wasn't just the 12-film one minus three episodes (despite GL once claiming it sort of was), and the 12-film plan wasn't 'four trilogies'. The 12-film plan was an ongoing serial about 'The Adventures of Luke Skywalker', with about 3 or 4 'tangential' films. Most of them would be about Luke & co.
    The trilogy of trilogies, however, was three separate, connected trilogies set in different time periods - which could roughly be described as The Adventures of Obi-Wan Kenobi, The Adventures of Luke Skywalker, and The Adventures of <insert the ST's hero here>.

    It's not quite as cut & dried as that, as we don't have all the necessary information (recently discovered notes indicate that at some point GL did attempt to construct a 12-film plan with heavier emphasis on the prequel era than he earlier intended), but neither Kurtz's nor Hamill's accounts ever quite fit completely.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Mar 9, 2013
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