BTS According to Gary Kurtz...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, Sep 22, 2012.

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  1. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2013
    star 4
    I think that there was plenty of "Dark Parts" (Particularly at the end with the Emperor), as well as great humor, and great action. It is my favorite movie because of:
    · The Palace Scenes and the Rancor was Awesome
    · Sail Barge Scene is one of my favorites
    · Obi-Wan telling about Anakin's history
    · Speeders on Endor!
    · I like the ground battle even though most people don't
    · Luke and Vader duel and the return of Anakin
    · Best Space Battle of the Saga (IMO)
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  2. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    That's a good list, and I respect that you love all those scenes. That list shows me the difference between ANH/ESB and ROTJ. While I can't find a bad scene in ANH/ESB, some of those scenes in ROTJ named are great, and some aren't so great.

    -The Jabba Palace scene goes on too long. but Rancor scene is good.

    -Sail Barge scene is great, although Boba's death is lame. (And I am not a Boba fan like my friends growing up were as I never bought into the hype).

    -Obiwan talking to Luke on Dagobah is a good scene.

    -Speeders on Endor is classic Star Wars!

    -The Ewok part is dull, too long, and the ground battle is so-so.

    -Throne Room Scenes are great.

    -Space Battle is fun but overrated, as it doesn't come close to the intimacy of ANH space battle.

    I still love the movie, but it just isn't nearly as great as ANH/ESB simply because I love some of those scenes you named and also don't love some of the other scenes you named. :)
  3. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

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    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Very well stated, @JEDI-RISING. Han's big sacrifice happened in ESB where he "died", and was even entombed.
  4. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Sorry, I made it up. (Click on the link)
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Sep 29, 2013
  5. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    yeah I'd already clicked on the link , but you made up the whole quote ?
  6. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Yep. Seemed to work.

    (I'm not a massive HP fan, but I might well have been subconsciously thinking about that scene you mentioned, along with The Matrix and the like - THX-1138 was definitely a conscious reference)
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Sep 30, 2013
  7. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    I loathed "Pan's Labyrinth." It's one of the few movies I'm actually sorry to have seen. Maybe Del Toro should have made those cuts.

    "The Dark Crystal" has a character, Fizzgig (the ball of fluff that follows Jen and Kira around) who is as cutesy as any Ewok. It also has one totally extraneous scene in which the Skeksis do nothing but burp, pick their teeth, and engage in more lowbrow humor than is in all six SW movies combined, including the supposedly "kiddie" TPM.

    Yeah, Kurtz really kept all the "kiddie, cute" stuff out of TDC. And his idea for the end of ROTJ stinks. Despite what we're supposed to think, there is already quite a bit of angst and darkness in ROTJ. It didn't need a major character dying to "add depth," and I loathe the idea of the main characters going their separate ways. I loathed the way the post-ROTJ destroyed their bond, and I'd have loathed it even more to see it in the canon.

    Incidentally, Jim Henson disliked working with Kurtz on TDC so much that he almost removed his name from the credits. Kurtz wasn't a very good producer, and he didn't seem to know what his duties were, thus letting the third consecutive movie he'd produced go off-schedule and over-budget. "Return to Oz" would make four. And Lucas stepped in and saved "Return to Oz," as a favor to Walter Murch, who was a longtime friend of his. Years later Murch was still grateful to Lucas.
    Last edited by maychild, Nov 9, 2013
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  8. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
    star 4

    A bit off topic but…WHY? Not to be accusatory or anything, but Pan's Labyrinth is one of my favorite movies of all time. Just interested in gaining a new perspective. :)
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  9. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    You can't get any more kiddie than the gelfling princess singing to all the little woodland creatures.

    Dark Crystal has not aged well with me. I still respect the craftsmanship and the genuinely ambitious nature of the thing, but the Dualistic ending leaves me very cold.
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  10. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    where are you getting that ^ from ?


    .
  11. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I wish this thread would stop sliding into bashing Gary Kurtz. I don't like him very much myself, but it's not really classy.
  12. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    It's a touchy subject - I'm happy to allow criticism of Kurtz, but only if it's backed up with evidence (i.e. the fact that he went over budget on ESB, or that his recollections don't match what we do know), rather than just vague impressions or simply not liking what he has to say.
  13. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    Neither is he. I don't think it's classy to badmouth one's former employer or cynically pander to the complaints of a subset of fans (he was "livid" when he saw the Greedo shoots first change, because it "ruins the scene" -- yeah, right; can we say "exaggerated outrage"?) to gain fame/respectability that one squandered long ago.

    To be fair, I think he is a kind person in most respects. Mackenzie Phillips wrote about his kindness to her during the filming of "American Graffiti" in her autobiography. But I'm sick of him being treated as some elder statesman of SW and the one who "made the first two movies good" because he says things that prequel- and Lucas-critics want to hear.
    Last edited by maychild, Nov 17, 2013
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  14. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

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    Nov 3, 2012
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    Ben Burtt has my vote for Star Wars Elder Statesman.
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  15. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    Him and Anthony Daniels.
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Believe it or not, some people really feel that way. He could easily be one of them.
  17. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

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    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
  18. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    Oh, I know some people really feel that way. They need to get out more.
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  19. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Yeah, who cares about stuff like ruining scenes or crapping all over Ford's story arc? Just the shut-ins.
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  20. maychild Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 16, 2013
    star 1
    nm
    Last edited by maychild, Nov 19, 2013
  21. FRAGWAGON Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2012
    star 4
    Dennis Muren for Star Wars Elder Statesman.
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  22. Ackbar815 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2014
    Anyone who wants to know the truth should read Jonathan Rinzler's books. It objectively documents what really happened and actually puts Lucas in a better light and Kurtz not so much, as several other crew members have criticized Kurtz. It's the most accurate document you will get about the events of the Original Trilogy.
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  23. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    Many on here followed the Rinzler books as they came out. They are indeed fantastic sources, though even they are missing some information longtime fans have been curious about, like: when were Luke's-father-Annikin and Darth-Vader mixed together into Anakin "Darth Vader" Skywalker? What exactly was the progression of series plans, from Bond-esque unlimited series to twelve-film sagas to nine, etc? Books like The Secret History of Star Wars do have some information about those things that isn't always mentioned in the Making Of books, though Secret History has its own problems, and Rinzler's inside access was definitely very helpful.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jun 2, 2014
  24. oierem Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2009
    star 3
    While I mostly agree with you, I'd say that perhaps some fans wanted to read about that "missing information" a bit too obsessively (having read The Secret History and looking for "confirmation"). It is my believe that, maybe, there isn't that much missing information; it's very likely that Vader and Father Skywalker being merged into one character wasn't a single sudden earth-shattering moment, but something that evolved gradually, was considered at some point, then perhaps rejected, or tried... Similarly, I don't think Lucas ever had the structure of the Saga clearly mapped out, and the "12 film plan that became a trilogy of trilogies and then a six film plan" is a simplification of what really happened (the saga being an evolving entity, plans being created and evaporated constantly).

    The Secret History doesn't have more information about those issues: it makes assumptions. And while I'd say most of them are more or less correct, I think it tries too hard to make it seem like " there was a clear structure set in stone and suddenly it changed because of a single event and became another clearly defined structure". It's natural for us, while analyzing anything, to want to see a clear time-sequence, defined elements, a structure.... but often, the truth is that everything is much less clear and more blurred.
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  25. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn The Other Saga Moderator

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    I completely agree with this. Mainly I meant that, as a fan who has long been into speculating about the history of the saga, any information regarding those topics (and others) is really interesting. It doesn't matter to me if making Darth Vader and Anakin the same person was a flash or a long process - but if I recall, the Making Of books sometimes seem to avoid these kinds of topics, or open up completely new wrinkles that no one knew about before they came out (like the handwritten saga outline unveiled in Making of ESB). These are usually not discussed in detail, and if Rinzler asked anyone (Lucas, etc) about them, those responses don't seem to be included. Of course, thirty years on, recollections will be mutated - and that's understandable. But it just seems like some of those issues deserve - or, to put it in a less pointed way, some fans wanted those issues to get - more coverage/focus.

    Another example is the Other - of which there is barely any mention in the Making of ROTJ book. A couple lines in the story conferences, a comment on one of the scripts, and a mention from Kazanjian (which I wish there were more detail to). Now, maybe there wasn't a whole lot of thought given to this element. Or maybe GL simply didn't put a lot of it on paper. Or maybe the papers were lost. Maybe Lucas considered this to be in flux right up until he point that they filmed it. But we don't know any of those, because it's just kinda passed over.
    Last edited by Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn, Jun 3, 2014
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