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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

BTS According to Gary Kurtz...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Nub, Sep 22, 2012.

  1. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 18, 2009
    Yeah, I agree. I do think that a lot of what WE (from today's perspective) consider important was never put on paper. Rinzler's book offer all kinds of information about the whole making of the movie INCLUDING the writting, but doesn't analyze them in any way, or try to interpret that information from a more global point of view.
     
  2. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 1, 2014
  3. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    Mod action: Merging with the 'According to Gary Kurtz' thread in Saga.

    Good interview, it's been a while since Colonel Gary Kurtz has weighed in on SW, and not as sensationalistic as previous ones (ORIGINAL STAR WARS PRODUCER TRASHES RETURN OF THE JEDI, THE PREQUEL TRILOGY AND GEORGE LUCAS!!!). No huge revelations, although he does back up GL's claim that SW/ANH was meant to have an episode number in the middle of things, but Kurtz seems to suggest that it was more of a novelty/technique than a genuine position in the storyline.
    Also the first we've heard of his opinions on the Holiday Special, to my knowledge.

    This was particularly interesting, it confirms an old theory of mine regarding the 'bittersweet' version of ROTJ that Kurtz has mentioned in the past (No Ewoks, Han dies, Leia is crowned, Luke wanders off at the end):

    The 'Kurtz version' of ROTJ never matched anything we knew about the development of ROTJ, I always figured they were just ideas tossed around 'for the third film' while ESB was being written - and there we have confirmation.
     
  4. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    So, according to Kurtz, Harrison Ford (and by extention, Kurtz himself) wanted to kill Han while Empire was being written? Then, why didn't they actually kill him in Empire? Kurtz insists that Return made the story "less serious" (by having all the heroes survive), but in reality, if Han was ever going to be killed, it had to be during Empire. From the moment they decided not to (and instead ended the film with a promise of a rescue) it was clear that Han HAD to be rescued (and couldn't be killed AGAIN).

    This alone is enough for me to suspect that what Kurtz claims to be "early ideas for Return" are basically his thoughts and wishes from nowadays.

    And of course, he presents this as the reason for which he left Lucasfilm, when in reality, he was virtually fired and replaced by Howard Kazanjian by the fall of 1979.
     
  5. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009

    I don't think he really does that, although there's no real mention of why he wasn't asked back for ROTJ. He was on the outs towards the end of ESB, then I think it was made pretty clear to him that they didn't want him back for ROTJ, and he was happy to leave. He was in contact with LFL during pre-production of ROTJ, most likely just providing a few contacts, plus he visited the Tatooine set during the shoot.

    He was fired, but it wasn't quite as acrimonious as many like to suggest.

    As for why they didn't kill Han in ESB - they sort of did, by freezing him in carbonite. He could have been thawed in the next episode, or not.
     
  6. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

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    Jan 3, 2013
    I feel like oierem has a point, though: while it might just be hindsight, Han being frozen in ESB doesn't really feel like him "dying", it feels like setup for a rescue. So Han not being rescued in the next episode would be pretty narratively jarring.
     
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  7. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    Remember that in Lucas's initial outlines and the first draft of ESB, Han wasn't frozen and carried off by a bounty hunter. Instead Han just leaves at the end on a dangerous mission for the Rebellion: namely, enlisting the support of his foster father Ovan Marekal, reclusive head of a powerful trade guild. Lucas only added the carbon-freezing element to the script after he read Leigh Brackett's draft and decided the heroes weren't in enough danger overall. (In the same vein, in Brackett's script Luke completes his training with Minch/Yoda and becomes a fully sworn-in Jedi before facing Vader.)

    So therefore the problem of Han's death in the then-unmade third film jarring with the rescue implied by ESB did not initially exist. Only when Lucas revised the storyline of the film he was making at the time did the prospect of Han's death come to clash with the resolution of his storyline that the audience would expect.

    This sort of thing is exactly why we got Yoda in ESB, mind you--Obi-Wan in SW 1977 wasn't actually slated to die until a last-minute script revision midway through shooting. So Lucas then had to invent another Jedi mentor for Luke in the sequel, a role that originally Obi-Wan would have continued to fulfill.

    Really interesting interview, BTW.
     
  8. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Right, but what I'm addressing is Darth_Nub's suggestion that Han's freezing, once it was in there, could still be a way of potentially killing him, which is an idea I've seen mentioned elsewhere. And while I believe it was considered as a potential out if Ford didn't return for the third film, I've never thought it was very feasible from a narrative standpoint.
     
  9. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    Agreed on that point. Besides which, I think Lucas had the idea that Han should stay alive if he was going to hook up with Leia in the end. Which seems to have been planned from the very earliest story outlines for ESB--Lucas told Leigh Brackett in late 1977 that Han and Leia would end up together, for instance. (Contrast this with what he told Alan Dean Foster in 1975, as quoted in The Making of SW.)

    On SW 1977, I think the idea was that Luke would get the girl in the end, but it seems Lucas also at that time had an idea that Princess Leia/Luke's girlfriend should be his twin, in a visual and symbolic though not biological sense. When Carrie Fisher was cast as the Princess, that idea was jettisoned, but it led to the emergence of Luke's lost twin sister as a new plot element in the story ideas for ESB. (Who in turn was merged back into Leia in ROTJ for reasons of storytelling economy.)

    Suffice it to say, I think Lucas always wanted a happy ending for the principal romantic couple--originally Luke and Leia in the first film, but changed to Han and Leia by the sequels. So I doubt he would have gone for Kurtz's idea of killing Han off, at least after 1977.
     
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  10. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    Neither have I, and it's not like they went with it anyway - all I really meant was that it may have come about as a part of the discussion in which Han's death was mentioned, and having it there as an option perhaps made it even more attractive to all concerned. The risk of him never escaping carbon freeze certainly works as an exciting cliffhanger, besides.
     
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  11. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    But, was he really happy to leave?

    That's what he makes us believe: his story is that he wasn't interested in the "revised" third chapter Lucas was creating. But I doubt it: towards the end of the shooting (which Kurtz was enjoying because he liked what Kershner was doing), Howard Kazanjian stepped in. At that point, Kurtz was, in a way, replaced, and by december 1979 he had resigned from Lucasfilm. At that point Lucas was quite busy editing Empire, so I very much doubt that there was any talk about a "revised" third chapter. At that point, Kurtz was working with Kersh, which he enjoyed, and creating a film that he believed was great. I very much doubt that he was "happy" to leave.

    In my opinion, AFTER he left, he realized that the third episode they were making (without him) was not what he thought it should be, and therefore, convinced himself (and others) that he was actually quite happy not to be a part of it. (That's natural human behaviour: we tend to convince ourselves that we are actually better in our new situation than in our previous one, and we like to present our "best face" to other people). But at the time he was "fired", he would've liked to be the producer of Star Wars 3.

    They sort of did.. but they didn't. Considering that Empire is considered the most mature, adult and serious episode, they refrained from actually killing a main character (the only movie in the whole saga in which none of the importat good guys die!). Leaving Han in hibernation forever could've been a dramatic end for the character ("he cannot be saved now... he's alive... but forever gone"), but the end of the movie suggest that the rescue will be possible and inminent. By doing so, Han HAD to be rescued, and once rescued, he couldn't be killed.


    Actually, I find it very hard to believe that Lucas ever considered a valid option to kill any of his leading characters. That was NOT the type of film he wanted to make around 1977. So I very much doubt that Han's death was ever suggested by Lucas as a possibility back then, and it was probably not suggested by anyone else until they started to write Jedi. (by the way, in the interviews from the release of Empire Harrison Ford seems to be willing to return without any doubt: his suggestion was that Han had to be killed during Jedi, and we aren't even sure when that suggestion was first made, -possibly after the succes of Raiders)
     
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  12. Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn

    Lt.Cmdr.Thrawn Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 23, 1999
    Hey everyone, just wanted to share this podcast I found. It contains some discussion - and more importantly, audio of - the Gary Kurtz interviews excerpted above. Some of the written quotes above have been rearranged. I'm not sure if it affects anything really, but I figured maybe some would be interested in listening.
     
  13. Ord-Mantell70

    Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2009
    Thanks for sharing.


    By the way, has anybody of you guys read Taylor's book (How Star Wars conquered the Universe) ?

    Is it worth it ?
     
  14. Saga Explorer

    Saga Explorer Jedi Knight star 3

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    Mar 14, 2015
    Thank God that Gary Kurtz has nothing to do with the Sequel Trilogy.
    His ranting about ROTJ and Episodes I-III is ridiculous IMO.
     
  15. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    Am I right in thinking that at the time of ESB only Mark and Carrie were signed up for 3 films, whilst Harrison was only on board for 2?

    Anyway, I think that if Harrison wasn't on board for ROTJ, which was a realistic scenario, that Han would have been left in carbon freeze.
     
  16. oierem

    oierem Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2009
    Harrison was signed up for each movie separately.

    However, I think people tend to overestimate the idea of Harrison not being on board for Jedi based on the comments made by the actor YEARS AFTER the movie was made! Back in 1980, Harrison was more than enthusiastic about SW and willing to come back to the third movie (I recall a TV interview of both him and Mark Hamill around the release of Empire when they both assure they'll be back for SW III -it's on youtube somewhere). There was no mention of him being tired with the franchise, and when nowadays Harrison talks about how he thinks Han should've been killed off, he's always referring to killing him in Jedi. He has never said (as far as I know) that he didn't want to return to Jedi. (remember that he wasn't a big star yet back then! By the time Raiders was made he was already contrated for Jedi).

    Also, there is absolutely no script version which doesn't include Han. Even the earliest outlines include his rescue and based on THe Making of Return of the Jedi, it's clear that Harrison had agreed to do Jedi shortly after Empire (by 1980). Again, the idea of him not wanting to do the third movie is based on statements made years after the movie came out, when Ford was already a big star with his own franchise, and grew tired of Han Solo and swore not to play the character again (and was popular to say that Return of the Jedi was a lesser movie).

    (I'd like to ask Harrison now if he still thinks Han should've been killed in Jedi).

    In any case, the POSSIBILITY of Harrison not being back existed, but was nothing more than that. I believe Empire would've ended differently if they feared Harrison wouldn't be back, instead of clearly saying that they're going to rescue him.
     
  17. AndyLGR

    AndyLGR Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    May 1, 2014
    I'd have to have a look at my old ROTJ making of book and also the Journal of the Making of ESB to refresh my mind, as I'm sure I read it one of those.

    But despite them saying they were off to rescue to Han, that doesn't automatically mean that would be a successful attempt, the option was there for that rescue attempt to fail if Harrison didn't come back to the franchise.
     
  18. ATMachine

    ATMachine Jedi Master star 4

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    Feb 27, 2007
    I'll have to find the quote, but Richard Marquand said at one point that Harrison wanted Han to die in ROTJ essentially so that Leia and Luke could get together. The Sister Leia revelation which GL introduced in ROTJ scotched that plan, however.

    "Wes Herd dies auch sei, hier muss ich rasten."

    Halt die Klappe, Siegmund!

    *ahem* Sorry.
     
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  19. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 24, 2015

    I am so glad that Harrison Ford didn't get his way. It would have been just wrong . . . especially on the heels of what happened in "The Empire Strikes Back". Even if Luke and Leia had not ended up as brother and sister. It just would not have felt right for that movie. Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher just didn't have that kind of vibe between them. Well, for me.
     
  20. Darth_Nub

    Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Apr 26, 2009
    Saw TFA earlier today, and something's been nagging at me ever since. We've all been led to believe that it's all new, no connection to GL's old notes regarding the Sequel Trilogy, but there was something familiar in there. Finally figured it out.

    George Lucas mightn't have been involved in the writing of TFA, but Lawrence Kasdan was. The new trilogy has kicked off with a slight variation on this early version of the end of Return of the Jedi!!!
     
  21. Sabre_Of_A_Sinner

    Sabre_Of_A_Sinner Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 30, 2015
    What I thinks interesting about these facts in general is that I seem to find very few Star Wars fans who bring this up, at least when talking about how StarWars went downhill and such though perhaps it's a bit pointless to mention any of this since The Force Awakens is pretty good.

    I think it would have been nice if Lucas & Kurtz worked more on that idea of Episode I "with the formation and origins of the Jedi" back in the 70s (though Lucas himself should've went for that idea prior to 1999 anyway) than starting with Episode IV. Of course this idea in terms of character doesn't resonate as strong as the original 1977 first film does at least on a commercial level, but somehow I do believe it could have been possible to build a convincing story round that idea but it would've been much harder to make. If this Episode I idea was very successful as being the actual first film, I think it would have still been less successful than A New Hope, but it still would have been a good point for the whole series to start at and then gradually get better with the other films to come in numeric order.
    I imagine in this "Episode I" you could still have a lead character that the audience can identify with (a bit like Luke Skywalker was), perhaps a character who discovers this new forming "Jedi Knight order" and we see this character (whoever he/she may be) go through the principles of Jedi training and you would have a basic character arc with the Jedi origin story resonating with it one way or another with a good plot as well.

    I don't know how hard the budget would have been but I know vaguely that the budget for A New Hope was hard enough to deal with in any sense. I dunno I just like fantasizing this version of Episode I in the 70s with the production quality of Zardoz or Logan's Run. [face_clown]
     
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  22. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    If you saw TFA, were you happy to hear what Luke was looking for?
     
  23. Sabre_Of_A_Sinner

    Sabre_Of_A_Sinner Jedi Youngling

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    Dec 30, 2015
    Remind me, what some ancient Jedi temple? I wished I remembered that part.
     
  24. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    Luke goes looking for the first Jedi Temple.
     
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  25. Sabre_Of_A_Sinner

    Sabre_Of_A_Sinner Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2015
    Yes that right! Cheers...yeah simplistically I liked that idea.
     
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