Achieving Peace in the Middle East

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KnightWriter, Sep 23, 2002.

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  1. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Can peace be achieved in the Middle East, or will conflict always be a way of life?

    Post your thoughts on Israel, Palestine and related matters.
  2. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Well, Arab lands in the region are about 99% while Jewish lands are 1% (Israel is about the size of Rhode Island) and other Arab countries have much unused land they could give to the Palestinians, but rather than do that they'd prefer fighting.

    It's sad.
  3. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Wylding,

    It may be slightly more complicated than that. It is not the acreage of land that has caused the grievance, but the way that it was aquired and most importantly the religious ground that is occupied.
  4. Darth_OlsenTwins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    They are still fighting in Yugoslavia over similar issues after 500 years. And Israel is a bit more important of a land religiously
  5. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Why the bloody hell should they have to go to another Arab country after living in Palestine/Israel for generations ?

    Why should another Arab country take them in ?

    Palestinians have lived there for generations and nobody but nobody has the wright to tell them they have to leave.

    Can peace be achieved in the Middle East ?

    In my opinion No,not a chance.

    Not while there are fanatical Jews and Palestinians that carn't see past themselves and there own agendas.

    and theres always going to be those !!!

  6. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    It seems that neither group is willing to make concessions (And neither says that they should have to) that would lead to permanent peace in the Middle East. Without placing blame on either side, I would say that Peace cannot happen without a change in mindset.

    Each group blames the other for the round-robin of retaliations. Without a change in mentality, this circle of violence is doomed to continue.

    Sadly, I doubt I will see an end to this in my lifetime.

    To define and base arguments, people use history. "Palestinians lived there first." "Isrealis were given the land by the UN." Those involved may need to look past the... well, past ( ;)) to see what may be right for the future.
  7. Jon_Snow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2001
    star 3
    I think that Israel has been willing to give concessions. They agreed to what, 97% of the Palestinian demands in the last round of Camp David negations? And then Arafat refused. For the Palestinian leadership, there has been no real desire for peace. And now, after months of suicide bombing, the Israeli don?t really want peace either.

    Will the current crisis lead to a complete destabilization of the Middle East? I don?t think so, and even if so, I don?t think that it will be permanent. The situation now is certainly no worse than it was around the time of the Six Day War. But I cannot see the Holy Land becoming any better than it was during the mid-nineties, at least not for the foreseeable future.
  8. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Camp David negations

    Interesting typo. ;)
  9. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    Camp David WAS NOT A GOOD PROPOSAL.

    Will you people get that through your head? 97% doesn't matter if the last 3% were the most important things.
  10. Jon_Snow Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2001
    star 3
    Ouch, now there?s a Freudian slip if there ever was one. It's all too true.
  11. TeeBee Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 2, 2002
    star 3
    Camp David WAS NOT A GOOD PROPOSAL.

    IT WAS BETTER THAN WHAT THEY HAVE NOW.

    Neither side can have everything they want. But neither side can start somewhere without the other agreeing to also START SOMEWHERE.
  12. Jedi_Nailbiter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2000
    star 4
    Well, I recently posted this link in the YJCC but a mod directed me here. Please just take a look at the site. The 'Children Remembered' and the story on the 'About Us' page are both quite powerful. If you have the time, scroll down and read all the names, causes of deaths and ages- it might change your view of the conflict. It sure changed mine.
  13. Darth_SnowDog Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2001
    star 4
    Can peace be achieved there? Yes. Anything can happen.

    Will peace be achieved there? No. Not as long as humans are inhabiting the Middle East. People have been fighting over that piece of dirt for 6000 years. Why stop now? Besides... as long as America continues to be dependent upon mideast petroleum, we will continue to support inhumane regimes and causes as long as they promise us oil at a good price.
  14. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    It is said that Human Life began between the Euphrates and Tigris rivers, in what we call Mesopotamia. Why not make the whole area on big museum of humanity, relocate Isrealis AND Palestinians to areas not currently inhabited. Set the boundaries and call it "unattainable".

    Just a thought. Not a very sound one--or realistic--but a thought, nonetheless. ;)
  15. Jedi_Nailbiter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 22, 2000
    star 4
    And who would manage this infinitely-valuable "unnatailable" plot of land?
  16. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    IT WAS BETTER THAN WHAT THEY HAVE NOW.

    Neither side can have everything they want. But neither side can start somewhere without the other agreeing to also START SOMEWHERE.


    The problem with all the negotatians is that the really big issues are not discussed enough because neither side is willing to concede enough ground on them. Jerusalem and the right of return are the only really important issues that are unresolved. If these could be solved then I think most other disagreements could be solved fairly easily.
  17. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Jedi_nailbiter, I've already said it was unrealistic. It seems strange to have a plot of land on this planet that isn't governed, controlled, or otherwise occupied by SOME nation or government, doesn't it?

  18. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    My thanks to KnightWriter for re-starting this debate with a more balanced focus.

    I guess I'll jump back in ;).

    I agree 100% with those who feel that establishing who the land belongs to by 'birthright' is pointless. To some, the creation of Israel was a great injustice. To others, it was the reversal of a great injustice. This is a matter of perspective, and however passionate both sides are over who is right, the argument itself goes nowhere. Solutions are needed, not squatters' rights fighting.

    That being said....

    Jerusalem and the right of return are the only really important issues that are unresolved. If these could be solved then I think most other disagreements could be solved fairly easily.

    Correct me if I'm wrong (GAP you seem to know a lot more about the whole Camp David thing than I do), but didn't the 1998 accord proposals include the sharing of Jerusalem? As it stands now, the eastern half of the city is inhabited by muslims, and the western neighborhoods by jews. If I recall, the agreement would have allowed joint administration of the city, with each side sticking to its own areas, and a promise to work together for creative solutions to the problem of the temple mount/dome of the rock.

    As far as the right of return, well, I am divided on this. I cannot in good conscience blast post-WWII europe for not allowing displaced jews to return to their homes and then deny palestinians the same right. Conversely, such a move would undoubtedly destroy Israel's existence as a jewish state, a manuever that would be equally unfair given the existence of multiple islamic theocracies in the middle east. It is quite a conundrum, and I'm not sure how to solve it.

    A thought I had was perhaps after the creation of a sovereign palestinian state, those palestinians who chose to return to Israel could be asked to accept much smaller legislative representation than the Israelis who live there now. If the ratio of delegates were altered (for instance, twice as many returned palestinians to a delegate vs whatever exists for current Israeli voting districts), the problem of Israel losing its national identity could be solved.

    I am NOT trying to come across as racist or advocating forceful separation, but I do see this as a potential compromise. There are some who might think that I am advocating an 'apartheid' type policy, but that is not my intent at all. I am simply trying to think of a novel solution that would allow Israel to think positively about the right of return, rather than see it as nothing more than a thinly-veiled attempt to destroy the country from within.

    As far as the 1998 accords themselves go, would the palestinians be better off today if they had accepted them as a start?? Maybe, but if all the other problems hadn't been solved, it would invariably have led to more violence. The sad thing is, we may never know.

    Peace,

    V-03


  19. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Correct me if I'm wrong (GAP you seem to know a lot more about the whole Camp David thing than I do), but didn't the 1998 accord proposals include the sharing of Jerusalem? As it stands now, the eastern half of the city is inhabited by muslims, and the western neighborhoods by jews. If I recall, the agreement would have allowed joint administration of the city, with each side sticking to its own areas, and a promise to work together for creative solutions to the problem of the temple mount/dome of the rock.

    The proposals did not include the sharing of Jerusalem in a reasonable manor. I haven't got the exact details but I believe that the Palestinians were offered only part of East Jerusalem.
  20. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    Then that needs to be addressed. Thanks for the input.

    V-03
  21. Saint_of_Killers Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 5
    I'm sorry KW, but you have to state your own opinion on the matter in your opening post. I'm gonna have to ask you to lock this.





























    ;)
  22. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Then that needs to be addressed. Thanks for the input.

    Regretable this issue is not going to be addressed for a long time. The extremists on both sides (Hamas and Islamic Jihad, and Ariel Sharon) are calling the shots and I can't see that changing without powerful outside intervention.
  23. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    The only way peace is possible is if one side or the other wins a clear and unambiguous victory. The fact is, neither side is willing to sit down and reahc a fair solution.

    The big problem is, if you look at the maps that the Palestinian Authority puts out, you will find that Israel is NOT on any of them, and Israel knows this.

    IMHO, what needs to happen is the U.S. needs to ultimately follow through. If Arafat is NOT replaced as leader of the Palestinians in the new elections to be held early next year, we need to back off and let Israel take the actions necessary for it's security. If it means a war, then so be it. This time, Israel must be allowed to WIN, and we should back them to the hilt in any debate at the UN.

    Without a clear-cut victory by either side, peace is impossible.
  24. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    Israel will not achieve an all out win whatever happens. Even if they drive every palestinian off the West Bank and Gaza Strip they will not stop the palestinians from gathering and attacking from other Arab states.
  25. JediSmuggler Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 1999
    star 5
    DarthKarde:

    Have the Arab States EVER beaten Israel in an out-and-out war?

    1948: Israel won.
    1956: Israel won.
    1967: Israel won.
    1973: Israel won.
    1982: Israel won.

    Their track record does not hold any promise of them securing a victory in a military conflict. Furthermore, even if there were an attempt by the Arab nations to gang up on Israel, we'd probably ramp up our support in response.

    The Arab world against the U.S. and Israel. It would get ugly, but I am very sure that the U.S. and Israel would come out on top when the shooting stopped.
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