Achieving Peace in the Middle East

I never said that the Arab states have ever beaten Israel in a war but Israel are never going to achive an all out military victory. They will allways be surrounded by Arab states. In the long term it makes sense to try and achieve peace. The Arabs can loose any number of wars but Israel wouldn't get a second chance if they lost just one.

 

Why kill the "Israel Should Not Exist" thread? How is this any different?

 

Why kill the "Israel Should Not Exist" thread? How is this any different?

Look at the two titles. The initial thread was based on showing why Israel should not exist (moving in one direction), while this thread is balanced and unbiased, allowing for a variety of discussion points.

 

So, we're not to discuss Israel's occupation of lands in 1967, or their settlement of Palestinan lands in recent years?

I think "achieving peace in the middle east" is an EXTREMELY broad (and unanswerable) topic. I think we'd all have to admit, there are NO solutions with both sides as ignorant as they seem.

 

You can discuss that if you would like.

 

I don't think it is going to happen save a tremendous religious event.

 

Agreed. (And I'm not very religious myself, so that's what I think the chances of that ever happening are!)

Maybe we should nuke them all into piece. Israel is maybe only the size of New Jersey. ONE selective nuke strike could annihilate ALL of the Palestiaians AND Israelis...wipe 'em all off the face of the earth. Help all of these religious folks to meet God a little early. Then, we wait a century or so for radiation levels to come down, take their land and build McDonald's on every corner!

 

Sadly, it might come to that, Ferelwookie.

Peace,

V-03

 

The UN security council early this morning passed a resolution blasting Israel for its actions (rightfully so, IMHO) against Arafat and his compound, and demanding a withdrawal.

The US abstained from the 14-0 vote (also rightfully so, IMHO), due to the resolution's lack of condemnation for the terrorist attacks that prompted the strike.

I find this thing disturbing. One the one hand, I think Sharon's actions are totally out of line, and only feed arafat's attempts to get sympathetic media coverage. On the other hand, I do believe that a strong anti-Israel bias exists in this world, and it gets played out rather often on the floor of the UN. It doesn't make much sense to me.

Both sides are at fault-so why not condemn the terrorism as well? By solely faulting Israel's retaliation in a resolution, the UN is silently sending the message that suicide bombing is ok-exactly the same message america's allies accused the US of sending two years ago for refusing to condemn the IDF's reaction to the onset of new terrorist attacks.

So I have to wonder, is peace really on the agenda here? America's abstention comes as no surprise, except to hard-liners who wanted a veto. Bush is searching for allies in his plans for Iraq, and arafat's seige comes at a very bad time in light of this.

Does anybody think the US is quietly toning down public support for Israel in an attempt to win more arab backing for ousting Saddam? I think so, and it's a shame, because Israel will still get US support behind the scenes, and the hopes for peace will be stalled even more.

*sigh*. I don't think this will be resolved until Iraq is dealt with to Bush's satisfaction. The flip side is, if he goes to war first without a resolution to this mess, it might be far bigger, and uglier than it would have been otherwise.

Yuck.

Peace,

V-03

 

Since V-03 has brought up the Iraqi tie-in, let me point out that Sharon recently stated that if a US invasion into Iraq forces Iraq to retaliate by attacking Isreal, Isreal will in turn fire back without restraint. Nuclear weapons were mentioned as an option in the statement. (I have more to post about that, but it does not belong here.)

So the United States may be hesitant in condemning the one nation who may become an unwilling alley against Iraq.

Then again, maybe all this is the plan, and Isreal is prepared to do what the United States is not, plant a tactical nuke in the center of Baghdad. Frightening.

 

Then again, maybe all this is the plan, and Isreal is prepared to do what the United States is not, plant a tactical nuke in the center of Baghdad. Frightening.

Actually, from the unofficial whispers that I've heard, the US would like Israel to not respond to a WOMD attack, especially with nukes, because the US would do it for them.

The theory is "america using nukes will generate just as much anger but far less retaliatory ability in the arab world than Israel using them".

Both are truly frightening thoughts. Maybe Saddam will retire?

Peace,

V-03

 

Actually, to be serious, I had a link in the old thread about Israel warning Iraq that they have the "right" to retaliate with nuclear weapons, should Saddam launch scuds on them this time. Pretty scary.

EDIT: Here's the link

 

This maybe is abit off topic but have you all hear about the Scottish lad who was killed by a Hamas terrorist ?

His family donated his kidneys and one of them went to a young Palestinian girl.

I know it's not really going to improve the situation in the state,but it would have been nice for it to have been given abit more press,seeing how all the negative press is flooded everywhere and this lovely gesture has slipped by very quietly.

Hearing things like this almost makes me think there could be hope !!!

 

Sharon recently stated that if a US invasion into Iraq forces Iraq to retaliate by attacking Isreal, Isreal will in turn fire back without restraint. Nuclear weapons were mentioned as an option in the statement

Lets be clear here...Sharon said that if they were attacked, they would respond. If they were attacked with a weapon of mass destruction they would respond with a nuke.

Just so we are clear...Sharon didnt say that a normal missile would incur the nuclear response....just a WOMD attack.

 

We're expecting the Arab lands to get along, yet most don't even know why there is contention. You won't find peace by telling them how to. They've got to come to that consensus by themselves.
Remember, we're like we are today after accepting warfare as a viable tool until WWII. It was accepted practise that national grievances could be worked out through war. We've also had 2000+ years of Judeo-Christian ethics, a Renaissance, an Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, all of which arrives at our current secular, liberal democratic, peace loving dynamic. Religion is important in the middle east - you've got minority Shi'ites controlling Iraq (>20%), radical Sunni clerics in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the Vahabi (also called Wahabi) extremists popping up (like Osama) and many other denominations, all different, some rival.

E_S

 

I'll be correcting a little what you've posted : we've been having Christian ethics for 2000 years (or 1700 if you want to be a little more accurate), not Judeo-Christian ethics ; the Jewish world and the Christian world did not become allies until 1945, they trod different paths and they had different view on ethics ; it's "thanks to" the Shoah that the Christian and Jewish civilisations grew closer, and they're still very different in very many ways.

 

We're expecting the Arab lands to get along, yet most don't even know why there is contention. You won't find peace by telling them how to. They've got to come to that consensus by themselves.
Remember, we're like we are today after accepting warfare as a viable tool until WWII. It was accepted practise that national grievances could be worked out through war. We've also had 2000+ years of Judeo-Christian ethics, a Renaissance, an Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution, all of which arrives at our current secular, liberal democratic, peace loving dynamic. Religion is important in the middle east - you've got minority Shi'ites controlling Iraq (>20%), radical Sunni clerics in Saudi Arabia and Iran, the Vahabi (also called Wahabi) extremists popping up (like Osama) and many other denominations, all different, some rival.

Your post has some good points but a few of your facts are wrong. It is the Sunni minority who control Iraq, not the Shia who make up over half the population. The Shia are the dominant group in Iran.

 

I'll be correcting a little what you've posted : we've been having Christian ethics for 2000 years (or 1700 if you want to be a little more accurate), not Judeo-Christian ethics

I think mostpeople would agree (IMHO) that the term 'judeo-christian' comes from an acknowledgment of the fact that both religions share the same moral foundation, ie the ten commandments, belief in one God, etc.. Though they divulge from there, many core principles of the two religions remain the same, and christianity builds upon its jewish roots (in many denominations).

Peace,

V-03

 

"The Arab world against the U.S. and Israel. It would get ugly, but I am very sure that the U.S. and Israel would come out on top when the shooting stopped."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that where the Arabs' and Palistinians' hatred against USA comes from?

9/11/01, being the worst possible scenario to date.

 

Peace will never be achieved in the Middle East because the Arabs (and most Muslims in general) despise the Jews. If the US didn't protect Israel, you can be sure that it would have been wiped off the face of the Earth.

Here's an interesting artice by Bill O'Reilly:

The truth be told

September 26, 2002
© 2002 WorldNetDaily.com

How many times over the last year have we heard various pundits and agenda-driven bigmouths say the following: The United States is partly to blame for world terrorism because it has abused and exploited the Muslim world.

This is an enormous lie and one that should be stopped dead in its tracks. The real reason that many Muslims hate America is that it supports and defends Israel. That is the truth, and all these other canards are charades.

A few years back, I was wandering around Morocco ? perhaps the most pro-U.S. Muslim country in the world. Everywhere I went, little kids ran up to me asking for handouts. When they saw I was an American, many of them asked in English: "Are you a Jew?" When I answered in the negative, they were very pleased. Jews were bad, they all said.

If you travel anywhere in the Muslim world, I guarantee you that the vast majority of children will behave the same way. They are taught hatred for the Jews in school. Their parents reinforce the prejudice at home. This has been going on for thousands of years, and it's all about land. The Muslims feel the ancient land of Palestine is their territory. But the Jews have chosen this place to make their stand.

The United States has heroically supported Israel in the face of almost worldwide condemnation. But what the world refuses to acknowledge is that without America's help, the Arabs would slaughter the Jews much like the Nazis did. There is no question about this. Hamas, Hezbollah and the other insane terrorists will tell you flat out: The Jews deserve to die. If the United States ever stopped supplying money and weapons to Israel, there would be a second holocaust.

So once again, America is practicing heroism. The United States has put itself at risk to prevent the Jews in Israel from being murdered even while our presidents have tried in vain to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the land conflict. We Americans have also contributed trillions of tax dollars over the years in an attempt to stabilize the Middle East. We are doing the right thing ? what's the rest of the world doing?

The United Nations is not going to help Israel or propose a fair peace deal. At that farce of a conference which the U.N. recently sponsored in Africa, anti-Semitic rhetoric ran amuck. The tone the United Nations allowed was shocking but, sadly, predictable. Israel has few friends in the world forum.

But the most egregious betrayal of all lies on the doorstep of Germany. The loathsome Gerhardt Schroeder sold out the United States and Israel by refusing any assistance in the Iraq situation in order to win re-election. Schroeder and the rest of his government know that Saddam Hussein would kill Israeli civilians in a heartbeat if he felt he could get away with it. The Germans know Saddam is capable of doing Israel great harm. Yet those courageous Germans are sitting this one out. Even though it is because of them that Israel had to be created in the first place.

Of all the people on this earth, the Germans are the ones who should be doing everything possible to help the Jews. They have not repaid the Hitler debt ? and show no signs of wanting to do so. It is shameful and cowardly that Schroeder and his followers have once again failed to fulfill their historical obligation to the Jewish people.

So when you hear all this claptrap about how America is insensitive to the Muslim world and arrogant and discourteous to weaker nations ? ignore it. What lies beneath terrorism and the endless Middle East conflict is glowing, murderous hatred that has been centuries in the making.

America is protecting millions of Jews from another mass homicide as sure as Yasser Arafat is a corrupt incomp

 

"I think mostpeople would agree (IMHO) that the term 'judeo-christian' comes from an acknowledgment of the fact that both religions share the same moral foundation, ie the ten commandments, belief in one God, etc.. "
=> V-03, truth be told, if you're going this way, we could talk about a Judeo-Christiano-Muslim world, but that's far from being the case. Many people will agree with what you say, but they'll be agreeing on a dire historical mistake, and that's what I intended to point at.


Darth Mischievous, I'm interested in this O'Reilly article you're posting here, but I certainly can't agree :

"How many times over the last year have we heard various pundits and agenda-driven bigmouths say the following: The United States is partly to blame for world terrorism because it has abused and exploited the Muslim world."
=> A nice start, full of venom and hatred. It sells better, of course, but it misses the point : the USA (along with many other western countries) ARE partly to blame for world terrorism ; they've financed a huge number of terrorists of all brands from 1945 'till 1991 in many theaters with a double aim : end colonialism and thwart possible Communist expansion. Unless I'm mistaken, you don't extinguish a fire by giving it fuel.

"This is an enormous lie and one that should be stopped dead in its tracks. The real reason that many Muslims hate America is that it supports and defends Israel. That is the truth, and all these other canards are charades."
=> I love the way O'Reilly jumps from "world terrorism" to "USA and Israël" - via yet another few words of contempt for those who might disagree. Many Muslims do hate the USA for its support of Israël, but terrorism isn't limited in scope to the USA and Israël. Read Algerian newspapers on a regular basis for an example - you'll find a number of surprises within their pages.

"A few years back, I was wandering around Morocco ? perhaps the most pro-U.S. Muslim country in the world. Everywhere I went, little kids ran up to me asking for handouts. When they saw I was an American, many of them asked in English: "Are you a Jew?" When I answered in the negative, they were very pleased. Jews were bad, they all said."
=> No surprise there. The sons of Israël and Ishmaël never had much love for each other ; both believe the other has usurped their father's heirloom.

"If you travel anywhere in the Muslim world, I guarantee you that the vast majority of children will behave the same way. They are taught hatred for the Jews in school. Their parents reinforce the prejudice at home. This has been going on for thousands of years, and it's all about land. The Muslims feel the ancient land of Palestine is their territory. But the Jews have chosen this place to make their stand."
=> The ancient land of Palestine was indeed the birthland of the now Muslim Palestinians. Read through the Bible and the "David and Goliath" metaphor, and you'll understand that the history of Israël's birth is one of military conquest. Now this is ancient history, but it nonetheless counters the classic Zionist argument that 'the Jews were there first'. Besides, Palestinians have been living there for millenia and had a hard time forcing the Crusaders back from their shores to keep the land their own ; from their point of view, the Israëlis are only the latest of a long string of invaders ; only the latest invasion is UN-sanctioned.

"The United States has heroically supported Israel in the face of almost worldwide condemnation. But what the world refuses to acknowledge is that without America's help, the Arabs would slaughter the Jews much like the Nazis did. There is no question about this. Hamas, Hezbollah and the other insane terrorists will tell you flat out: The Jews deserve to die. If the United States ever stopped supplying money and weapons to Israel, there would be a second holocaust."
=> Have you ever had a nice, long chat with a hard-core Zionist ? I have one who lives next door to me, and I tell you, what he says is frightening. To him, it would be only normal if Sharon re-

 

I can tell you are from France, Lordban (if indeed you are). Many of your positions reflect the French way of thinking in politics. (The French government wouldn't even allow us to use their air space when we struck Libya after they blew up one of our civilian airliners back in the 80s. I mean no offense by mentioning this or that your beliefs are not heartfelt, but I do believe that some the logic is flawed.)

I see no true ally of the US in the Middle East region but Israel (and possibly Turkey and Quatar). Our only true ally outside of Israel is Great Britain.

IMHO, the only solution to this problem is for Israel to annex the occupied territories.
I do not favor ANY sort of genocide. I would support deportation if it comes to that. Israel has held great restraint against the Palestinans, I can tell you that it is unlikely any Arab nation would do the same were the situation reversed. Israel has also shown it can defeat any Arab nation that goes against it, and all of them together, pretty much (see the Six Day War).

One side must win, because the parties will never get along with one another.

If it were up to the Palestinans (and most Muslims anyway), Israel would be driven into the sea. Both sides want the land, and it is obvious that it cannot be shared.

I've been all over the middle east three times, and I can tell you Israel is the only civilized country in the region. All the others are living in the middle ages.

I wish some who rail against the Germans for not repaying their debt to the Jews kept that in mind : these deaths they can't pay back for, nor are they accountable for them.

The German people are indeed responsible for what happened to the Jews. There was (and is) widespread anti-semitism in Germany and mainland Europe as well. Without the support of the German people, Hitler would have never been elected Chancellor nor given the power he had. And if I remember correctly, the South of France helped Germany in WWII (see Vichy France). They can account for all those lives lost by having a sense of goodwill to the Jewish people and to Israel.

America is insensitive to the Muslim world, else they would donate the Muslims who die of hunger on a day-to-day basis the billions they spend on NMD - sums that are multiples of ten of the budget Palestinians get to spend on a yearly basis, by the way.

Since when is the US responsible for the hunger of Muslims? But the fact is we give BILLIONS of dollars in aid to Muslim nations, most of it wasted because of dictatorships and backwards theocracies. Would they give us a dime were we to starve? I don't think so (unless we were Muslims).

----

O'Reilly's right, IMHO. That doesn't make him arrogant. It just is offensive to those who disagree.

 

Our only true ally outside of Israel is Great Britain.

Yeah dude, because the fact that Australia has supported you through many, many wars and has pledged support for this war means nothing at all

Edit:

Without the support of the German people, Hitler would have never been elected Chancellor nor given the power he had.

How, firstly, were the German people to know that he was going to drag them into a war and kill their country men? How did the German people know what exactly was in store for them? Do you think that they would have voted him in if they knew that he was going to set up concentration camps and so forth??? (I certainly don't).

You do realise that most politicians are voted in with some degree of uncertainty about what they are exactly going to do. Policy is decided on the current world happenings and economic outlook (just look at September 11th).


Kithera

 

I hate to say it, but europe does hold some blame for the current situation.

I wouldn't single out germany per se, but if the jews displaced from their homes by the nazis during WWII had been allowed to return, then the push to create a "jewish state" would probably not have resulted in Israel.

Instead, a refugee crisis of massive proportions faced not a third-world nation, but a group of first-world ones. In the effort to rebuild and rearm against the growing threat of Stalin and the USSR, Israel's creation probably seemed like the best, quickest solution at the time (migration to that area for decades, etc), with a "we'll deal with any problems later" attitude from the UN. This was sloppy, but just as much america's fault as well. The "jewish question" had come before the allies and was simply answered in a different albeit quick way: Israel. The arab nations were mostly left out of the decision-making process. What was lacking was a thorough debate on the subject; ie the UN failed in some ways here.

The other point I would like to make is that the palestinians are not exactly loved in the arab world. They have been mistreated just as badly by other muslim nations (and in the case of Jordan, worse) than any treatment they have gotten by Israel. The name "palestinian" is a rallying-cry around which the dictators of the muslim theocracies can rally their people to help take their minds off of unemployment, illiteracy, and the fact that a few individuals control all the power and wealth while the rest of them live in squalor. That's all. "Hating the jews" is a convenient mantra when one wants to keep disillusioned masses occupied-and it works. The real culprit here is lack of freedom and democracy, and this is what the US and its allies should be promoting in the middle east.

If Israel were to be wiped out by the arab nations, all that would happen is that they would then all resume fighting each other: first for who would control the land, second, for who would be the dominant power in the region. Arafat and the palestinians would simply be a nuisance and their wishes to control palestine would fall on the same deaf ears as it has to Sharon's government. They might get a state in name, but some other country would be pulling the strings. The arab nations are really no friend to arafat and the palestinian people. That's a shame, because is either.

Peace,

V-03

 

The push to create a Jewish state already existed before Hitler started bearing down on European Jews - actually, Zionists performed terrorist attacks as far back as 1933 to claim the Palestine of then as theirs. What WWII did achieve was to give enormous momentum to the Zionists' cause, and after the war, denying them the right to create an Israëli state would have been equivalent to negating the fact the Shoah ever took place.