Achieving Peace in the Middle East

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by KnightWriter, Sep 23, 2002.

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  1. Darth_Asabrush Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2000
    star 5
    The US could help drive peace forward but alas its foreign policy is too biased in favour of Isreal.
  2. Vaderize03 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 1999
    star 5
    The push to create a Jewish state already existed before Hitler started bearing down on European Jews - actually, Zionists performed terrorist attacks as far back as 1933 to claim the Palestine of then as theirs. What WWII did achieve was to give enormous momentum to the Zionists' cause, and after the war, denying them the right to create an Israëli state would have been equivalent to negating the fact the Shoah ever took place.

    You know, you accuse the US of being one sided, but I find some of your comments jaded in the extreme. What terrorist acts are you referring to? The position that Israel has no right to exist is as hard-line and one-sided as you claim US foreign policy to be. There will be no peace with any policy that calls Israel illegal, which is partly why the Sharon government consistently ignores the EU condemnation of its admittedly over-the-line treatment of the palestinians. I'm not saying that the EU nations do not recognize Israel's right ot exist, butw hile the holocaust was caused by the actions of a violent fringe that had gained power, there is the perception amongst many Israelis and americans that europe is both anti-Israeli and anti-Jewish. This is as much a problem for the west as the anger directed against it by the muslim world.

    The west needs to present a united front before the ME problems can be successfully tackled. Unfortunately, a lot of Bush's policies are not built on compromise, but trying to convince other nations that america is always right. That needs to go too.

    Anyway, I gotta go back to work. More later.

    Peace,

    V-03
  3. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Oh yea, I forgot about Australia [face_laugh]

    hehe

    whoops
  4. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    True enough, Vaderize03.

    There is no love lost between other Arab nations and the Palestinians. They really use them for their own purposes.
  5. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    The US could help drive peace forward but alas its foreign policy is too biased in favour of Isreal.

    Well....we'd like to support the terro--I mean Palestinian government, but frankly, they don't want peace as much as Israel doesn't want peace. So why bother?
  6. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Try reading some of this; this guy was CIA who left because of career bureaucrats.
    Bob Baer on PBS

    And it's funny, how many Americans forget Australia. We're a better friend than Great Britain; our leader just lacks the charisma to make an impact! :)

    Vaderize; you said "The west needs to present a united front before the ME problems can be successfully tackled. Unfortunately, a lot of Bush's policies are not built on compromise, but trying to convince other nations that america is always right. That needs to go too."

    The West can't tell the ME what to do; simply becase the Arab world is not how we perceive it and our values and theirs do not mesh. Read the Baer link; France, GB and USA are all seen as imperialist powers trying to undermine Islamic culture with their own. America can't understand that a ME nation could want to trade goods without McDonalds or Friends.

    E_S
  7. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    France, GB and USA are all seen as imperialist powers trying to undermine Islamic culture with their own. America can't understand that a ME nation could want to trade goods without McDonalds or Friends.


    The Islamic nations do indeed see it this way, I've been to many of their countries.

    But, Islam is a totally intolerant religion of other religions. You cannot carry a Bible in Saudi Arabia, they will confiscate it. Nor can you wear any religious symbol (other than that cresent moon of theirs). In some muslim nations, Christians are being persecuted severely, killed and tortured.

    Islamic culture by nature wants to destroy any other influence within itself so only it can thrive, so I think the Islam is the only religion and culture trying to undermine any other culture.

    Muslims live in the US and other western countries as free as you or I. They can say or do what they want and practice their religion as they see fit. But let you or I go to an Islamic country and try that. You would end up in jail or possibly dead (as those Christian aid workers in Pakistan did).
  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    DM, that's a pretty intolerant and unfair remark. Islam itself is a tolerant and beautiful religion. Sadly, people mess it up. Saudi Arabia has some particularly nasty clerics running round adhering vehemently to the Shari'a, this is true. It doesn't make it the truth of Islam. It is the same as people claiming to be Christian and being violent - like bombing abortion clinics. Christianity, Buddhism, Islam - you name it, they're almost all about compassion and tolerance, and they also reserve the right of judgement to their deties, or karma. More specifically, they take judgement out of the hands of mankind. If you want to understand the power of these people, and indeed for our own understanding compare it to Catholicism around the time of the Spanish Inquistion.
    E_S
  9. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Islam itself is a tolerant and beautiful religion
    .

    Not true at all.

    Here is a quote from the koran:
    IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

    Here is another quote from the koran:
    IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

    So basically, if you're not Islamic you're an infidel. The quote gives permission to kill disbelievers and gives terrorists the fundamentalist fuel they need.
  10. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    Yeah, that's right. [face_plain] Take a small section of someone holy book and use it to justify your hatred of an entire religion [face_plain] I could do exactly the same thing to Christianity or any other religion out there...but I won't as it is pointless to use something so small and justify your dislike of the whole thing on that one piece.

    Kithera
  11. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Kit, save your breath. I've read it too, but I'm not going to get into a war of the scriptures.

    E_S
  12. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    It is amazing that some can read others minds without even knowing them. [face_plain]

    I merely responded to the false claim that Islam is a peaceful and tolerant religion, which it obviously is not.

    I would like to see something other than a personal attack to rebut my above post, and why the terrorists use those very passages to commit murder.
  13. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    Christianity is a hateful religion, because of the Spanish Inqusition, salem Witch Trials, Fundamentalists in the USA, Catholic support of WWII-era Fascist regimes and their refusal to act against the Holocaust.

    See? Take a few acts to alter your perception of a religion and it still proves that you're wrong. And as I said, I'm not getting into a war of scripture. Suffice to say you're yet another "black and white" conservative.

    E_S
  14. Kit' Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 30, 1999
    star 5
    I think I'll save my breath Ender, like you said....I don't think it is worth argueing about...

    However, I will say this. Earlier this year I did a semesters worth of study on Islam, the Qu'ran, the teachings and words of Muhammad and how they were linked to war. Orginally when I started, I expected to find out lots of stuff to support my arguement (I was researching the idea that the Qu'ran lead to the Islamic War of Expansion). However, what I found was different. I did find things to support my idea (I used both quotes above), but I also found things that dismissed what I was talking about. It made me think deeply about Islam and the way it has been mis-represented in the media. I'd advise anyone who thinks that this religion is a one that incites war to go and read the entirety of the Qu'ran with an open mind.

    Kithera
  15. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    I have to absolutely dispute that Christianity is a hateful religion in of itself, it's just false. Christians are called to love your neigbor as yourself, but most don't, unfortunately.

    I am fully aware of Christian wrongs throughout history. It was men who caused these things to happen, not Christianity itself. Nothing in the Christian faith justifies what happened during the inquisitions or any of the other atrocities commited in the name of God by sinful men.


    ---
    But that is what the essence of the problem in the middle east is all about, is Islamic fervor in destroying the state of Israel.

    I merely quoted a section of text with which the terrorists use to justify their actions. It states blatantly that it is justified to kill infidels. That's what they use is it not?

  16. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    If you're going to argue over islam, here's something you should know. When the 'Prophet' Mohammad had his 'visions' he decided to enlighten people. You wanna know how he did that? He conquered them and assimilated them into Islam. I would hardly call this a peaceful religion. Given their past. But then again, other religions have done some pretty stupid stuff in the name of their God as well. It's just that some, don't continue to practice it. Whereas Muslims do.

    You can call that buying into the media or whatever ignorant comment you're going to make about mine. But it's the truth. You don't need to be a genius to see that there is something fundamentally wrong with Islamic culture and religion. There have been some stupid causes in the name of religion.


    Back on topic. Religion and culture prevents peace from ever being achieved. If you see this from the Jewish angle, you're stupid and ignorant and should otherwise burn in hell. If you see this from the Palestinian (Muslim) side of this, you're being an idiot, should still burn in hell, but you're supporting the 'poor', 'defenseless', Palestinians. Oh I surmise that they're hardly defenseless when they strap bombs to their chests or plant bombs and blow up civilians. Yeah, and if you think the average Palestinian doesn't do that. Think again. There was a news story on a woman that wanted her kids to be suicidal terrorists. Either way, it's a lose/lose situation in the Middle East.
  17. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Islam is not a peaceful religion historically, that's true. But then again, neither is Judaism or Christianity. The fact that no enlightenment has taken place regarding Islam is one thing, but singling it out as the only violent religion in the region is another.
  18. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Islam is not a peaceful religion historically, that's true. But then again, neither is Judaism or Christianity. The fact that no enlightenment has taken place regarding Islam is one thing, but singling it out as the only violent religion in the region is another.

    I don't see the crusades still taking place? Or that we're declaring holy war on the east, are we? Anyone, anyone? Well the moonies might, but that's a different thing. Oh how about suicide bombing christians or jews? Don't see those every day. Yeah, they may bomb an abortion clinic or two, but those are pro-lifers, not just Christians. Yes, you're right about one thing though. Islam is far from the only violent religion. There's the moonies, heaven's gate, those pyramid freaks on TV, oh and let's not forget that Jim Jones (?) religious sect with the poison kool-aid. Yeah, there have been some violent religious sects out there.
  19. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    What you don't seem to realise is that what you perceive to be your non-PC, pseudo realistic point of view is in fact misguided and short-sighted towards Islam as a religion on the whole. I sincerely cannot believe how you can judge an entire religion on the deeds of extremists from one region of the world. How can you decide to judge Turkish, Malaysian, Indonesian, Pakistani or even many Arab muslims on the terrorist acts of a group of fundamentalist terrorists? Every culture has such frine groups, as you yourself concede and you should not be blinded by the acts of those to put a tarpauling to cover the entire ideological, cultural or religious bases they might stem from.
  20. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    What you don't seem to realise is that what you perceive to be your non-PC, pseudo realistic point of view is in fact misguided and short-sighted towards Islam as a religion on the whole. I sincerely cannot believe how you can judge an entire religion on the deeds of extremists from one region of the world. How can you decide to judge Turkish, Malaysian, Indonesian, Pakistani or even many Arab muslims on the terrorist acts of a group of fundamentalist terrorists? Every culture has such frine groups, as you yourself concede and you should not be blinded by the acts of those to put a tarpauling to cover the entire ideological, cultural or religious bases they might stem from.

    I like this rhetoric that Islam is somehow a peaceful, non-violent religion. Okay, first off. I'm not PC, do you want me to be? Secondly, it is not the ignorant people of the world that bury Islam and condemn it. It is the people who practice the religion that bury it. When you see terrorism and people practicing islam who hate America, wish it dead, call on holy wars against the west. You kinda get the idea that this religion is FUBAR'ed. It is not a religion I'd practice, come to think of it, no religion is. But you wanna say it's not that bad, and that not every Muslim is a terrorist tell that to the families of those who've died because of this religion.


    Oh, and I just any religion that's ignorant enough to generalize that I'm somehow inferior or an infidel because I don't practice their 'religion'.
    EDIT: I just realized what I meant to say.
  21. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Are you telling me now that every Muslim IS a terrorist?

    I sense a deep seated anger, frustration and inherent racism in your comments and that is far more disturbing than the inutile comments they hide behind.

    But you wanna say it's not that bad, and that not every Muslim is a terrorist tell that to the families of those who've died because of this religion.

    According to this quasi-racist mantra, no-one can ever make peace with anyone. If you believe that people belong to their societies first and then are themselves individuals, there is no point in talking with you as it is an arcane philosophy you harbour.
  22. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Are you telling me now that every Muslim IS a terrorist?

    I sense a deep seated anger, frustration and inherent racism in your comments and that is far more disturbing than the inutile comments they hide behind.


    Racism? Hmmm.....white folks practice islam too.... :eek: new revelation. Actually nothing I do is in anger. Dunno who you've been talking to. Most people know that about me by now. :D
  23. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Racism is not simply about black and white. All I know about you so far is that you are a hateful bigot; the kind of erson with political opinions that I truly and utterly despise.

    And one who still has not answered me whether or not every Muslim is a terrorist.
  24. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Racism is not simply about black and white. All I know about you so far is that you are a hateful bigot; the kind of erson with political opinions that I truly and utterly despise.

    Oh, I'm hurt. Get to know me first BEFORE you say I'm a hateful bigot. Take this up in a PM. :D You can despise my opinions, frankly I don't care if you do. That's your right. I'm not going to go crying to mommy and daddy because someone disagreed with me.

    Anyways, time for school. Peace, love, and chicken grease.

    And one who still has not answered me whether or not every Muslim is a terrorist.

    I think I edited that comment. Uhhh...*checks* Yar! I did.
  25. AL Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1998
    star 5

    Back to school?

    That phrase is oh so very relevant to you, dear boy, in more ways than one. Back to school, indeed.
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