ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

But I was serious. Clearly, some folks invest too much emotion into their theories on this subject. Given that, it's best to avoid fanning those flames, IMO.

 

Appearing to try to delegitimize the perspectives of those who disliked/took issue with/hated TLJ certainly fans the flames...

 

Where am I delegitimizing anything? I would be equally as critical if ReySky had happened and Rey Unrelated types were losing their minds. It isn't about the outcome. It's about the investment that leads to unreasonable reactions.

I'd argue the same applies to those losing their minds about Luke, too.

I mean, I have a LOT of criticisms of the PT! But I have been critical of the "Lucas raped my childhood" types as well.

 

THIS!

 

I believe you that you’re not biased against Reyskys i particular. It sounded like you were claiming that TLJ critics are upset mostly just because they didn’t get their headcanon, vs actual, legitimate flaws of the movie (or, at the very least, percieved actual, legitimate flaws of the movie).

Perhaps you’re not actually stating that that fanboy/girl disappointment is the only or even the main reason why TLJ dislike the movie. But I’m seeing that argument used a lotto mean exactly that.

And I say that as a fangirl who feels that they story is turning out better than my headcome but think TLJ is very deeply flawed as a film and stortelling vehicle.

 

@JoJoPenelli I know that you've speculated that when Luke read Ben's mind Luke thought he saw that Ben had done something terrible in the past but do you think that in that moment Ben knew that Luke had read his mind? Yes it seems like Ben attacked Luke because from Ben's perception he thought Luke was going to kill him, but I wonder if Ben also was thinking, "Oh no! Luke knows what I've done! That's why he's trying to kill me!"

I'm just wondering if when Kylo has thought about his past has he considered himself to be a good kid whose heart had not been turned by Snoke and that for seemingly no reason at all Luke went crazy one night and showed up at his bedside ready to kill him?.

All of this is to say, how far does Kylo's denial go? Does Kylo know why Luke would briefly consider killing him or is Kylo so far in denial that he's never understood why his uncle would consider such a thing? I've got to imagine that Kylo knows.

 

No because Ben was sleeping.

Yes. I think that was why Ben’s reaction was so violent.

He seems to think he’s a monster. I would imagine Snoke leveraged Ben’s guilt to twist his perceptions of himself and his family. That strikes me as far more sympathetic than what we know thus far.

I think Kylo reacted the way he did because he believed Luke had figured out what he had done and was going to kill him for it. I could imagine that may have been what cemented his perception of himself as a monster.

I believe Ben was a sensitive kid. I think he would have felt guilt beyond his actual moral culpability (which I’m guessing was, in fact, quite low), and Snoke exploited that.

If what I spec is indeed the case...THAT would be a gut-punch and get a lot of Kylo-haters to rethink their opinion of Kylo.

 

That's right. Doesn't Rey call him a monster and he says, "I know"?

I'm wondering if Snoke told a young Ben something like, "if Luke ever finds out what a monster you are he will come to you and strike you down"?

 

He said “Yes, yes I am.”

Oh I could absolutely imagine Snoke doing that

 

And Snoke of course must have known that Luke would eventually sense Ben's dark side flashes and maybe anticipated that Luke would confront Ben.

So Ben was bait for Luke? I wonder if Luke realized that afterward?

 

I've wondered about that. I think Luke's reluctance to acknowledge Ben's darkness offered some measure of cover for some time. And Ben's actions immediately following his confrontation with Luke indicates to me he had a plan as to what to do when he was ultimately discovered. Snoke probably told him something like "Stay as long as you can. Learn his strengths and weaknesses. Bring as many of the other students to the Dark as you can. And when you are discovered, strike decisively. Kill Skywalker. Kill all his followers that will not bow to you. And bring the rest to me." At least that;s the way it goes in my head. Kylo did not, of course, kill Luke. For all his bluster, he could bring himself to do that.

 

I could see something like that. Maybe Snoke also told Ben that he needed to be prepared to kill Luke’s students. Snoke maybe said “I know you have it in you to do this. It’s who you are and what you are meant to do. They will hunt you down if you do not stop them”.

Also when Ben first came to train with Luke I wonder if some of the students were star struck by their classmate with the famous family? Perhaps these were the ones that left with Ben? Snoke maybe encouraged Ben to take advantage of his sway over his star struck classmates.

Then again I thought the Knights of Ren existed before Ben fell to the dark side so maybe not?

 

From what Luke said, Kylo likely thought Luke dead. But he didn’t try to make sure, and I do find that meaningful.

 

Snoke's whole deal seems to revolve around Luke then if Ben was bait for that to happen. It certainly sounded that way in TLJ when he addressed that topic with Rey in the throne room. If Snoke is truly out of the picture then ep 9 can proceed without that story at all. Then again I like that angle myself. It will be interesting to see what JJ does with it.

 

On that note Snoke and Kylo must have had an awkward conversation when Snoke learned that Luke was still alive.

Snoke: You told me that you killed Skywalker.
Kylo: I thought I did.
Snoke: You thought? *Zaps Kylo with electricity*

 

A life well lived. Defeated in combat by NOBODY.

 

I was wondering -sorry if that sounds like a silly question but i'm curious: with TFA focusing a lot on stripping down Adam's character from his Vader-like persona and TLJ going even further, do you guys still think of him/refer to him as Kylo Ren or Ben (Solo)?

 

Hmm... good question. I think of him as both. But if I had to choose, I'd say Ben, but I never refer to him as Ben. While he's very much Kylo to me, I've always viewed him as a fallen person, even from the very first scene in TFA. That's because I'm a Jacen fan and was hoping we'd get some form of his tale. And we are, to a certain extent.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

 

So, it's a good movie then.

 

Does this differ from your pre-Solo sentiments?

 

Slap isn't a strong enough punishment

@The PiedPiper of Alderaan I definitely don't see him as Ben Solo. As far as I'm concerned, I've never been given anything to go on in order to see him as Ben Solo.

 

It probably wouldn't faze him after many years of physical and mental torment at the hands of Snoke.