ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

The Force theme is not a love theme.

And JW thinks Rey and Kylo are cousins, anyway.

 

Or Kylo could've looked into the camera and yelled, "SHWING!"

 

Had it been intended as romantic, there’d be a love theme. Period. Full-stop. That is how JW operates. And his job is to capture the intended emotional subtext of each scene.

If JW didn’t see it, that’s because it’s not there.

 

Stop encouraging them.

 

If Rey and Kylo were meant to be a couple why didn't they simply have them kiss in TLJ? I guess the idea is that she wouldn't kiss him before he's redeemed? Ha! That would be so bad.

Rey: You're a monster!

Kylo: Sorry about all the killing. I totally regret it. No really.

Rey: That's all I needed to hear! Now kiss me!

 

Well, yes, that would be bad, but presumably it won't play out like that if it happens. That's like if somebody just saw ANH and ESB and said,

If Luke forgives Vader, it will be so bad!

Luke: "No! That's impossible! I'll never join you!!!!"
Vader: "Sorry about chopping off your hand and killing your mentor, and putting your buddy in carbonite. For whatever its worth, I really wasn't directly responsible for Alderaan, you know. I mean, sure, I stood there and let it get blown up, but I didn't actually give the order myself."
Luke: "That's all I needed to hear! Let's have a picnic!"

 

Ha! Good point.

 

I think the concept of unconditional love for one’s parent or child makes more sense to people generally than unconditional romantic love, which irl has gotten people (especially women) killed.

And Vader died. That was *key* to the “acceptability” of his redemption.

 

That's a big point right there! That's why when I say Kylo needs to "croak like a Skywalker" that is what I mean. Both Anakin and Luke died to save others directly. Some were relatives but others not. What will be Kylo's fate? I darn well expect it will be similar, especially if she is one of them too.

 

Yeah I won't be surprised at all if he "croaks like a Skywalker" or appears to croak. I don't want him to actually die but I could see audiences being more comfortable with him dying redeemed rather than living redeemed. Seems like a way to split the difference. The people that think Kylo should be punished will be happy that he died and the people that wanted to see him redeemed will get that moment too albeit a brief moment. And then everybody can gripe about how it's all a big Vader rehash.

If we learn that Rey is Luke's kid and that her mother was killed by Snoke and that Kylo has felt responsible in some way for her death I could see us getting a scene where the First Order is barreling down on Rey and Kylo and it looks like there's no way they can both escape and then a redeemed Kylo tells Rey something like, "I should've tried to save your mother but I didn't. I was weak. I'm not going to make that mistake again" and then he holds off the FO and allows Rey to escape and Kylo appears to die.

 

I like the idea of Kylo being redeemed and leaving his ultimate fate ambiguous. Leaves the door open for more stories there.

 

Yeah on the one hand I think that might be the best to make his death ambiguous, i.e. giving the audience the opportunity to decide if he lived or not. On the other hand some people will hate the ambiguity and it might feel like in their attempt to please everybody they please nobody.

 

Please, no ambiguity! When they did that with Jacen's fate, I wanted to scream for weeks. Please, let him be redeemed or not, but don't let it be ambiguous. Let us know where he truly stands.

(But if that's the only way he lives, I guess I'll have to take ambiguous.)

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Oh I’m sure he’ll be redeemed. It’s his survival I think is ???

 

I don't have quite the faith you do in redemption. I'm literally split down the middle in how it might go. In both how it will go and how I'd like it to go.

As for living, I think he'll live (and hope he'll live). The only part that gives me a little doubt on that, is whether Adam would like to continue with the role.

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Huh. Well, it certainly fit the whole "opposite sides" narrative. Of course I would like to think of it as similar to Maul in Rebels. Where we know that the FO is defeated, but Ren is lost in the chaos. It would be similar to Maul disappearing only to reappear a shattered and lonely remnant of his former self (in Rebels).

Only his fate could be left unknown as his empire crumbles, Hux is most likely killed, and he's presumed dead. Only for him to wind up alone and miserable on Tatooine or Jakku. With or without redemption in the Force, that is. Reminds me of Cain in a way, where he would wander alone and when he settles down he just dies and that's it. Of course he could still find some peace in the Force, but with the understanding that the rest of his life would be filled with the very misery and loneliness he caused himself.

 

The thing about keeping Kylo evil and alive is that it would set Kylo up to be the big bad for future movies and after three movies of him pretty much being the big bad I have a feeling that bringing him back a forth time would feel stale. Even if they try to say, "no no this is a totally different situation because Kylo's not conflicted anymore. He's fully evil", it seems like it would feel very "been there, done that".

Also I don't think a fully evil Kylo would be noticeably different than how he's appeared in the ST. One of my criticisms of the ST is that they sure do tell us that Kylo is conflicted but they don't do a great job of showing it. I thought we'd get more of that in TLJ and yet despite Snoke telling the audience that Kylo was really torn up about killing his dad I never would've known that. To me he acted the same as he did prior to impaling Han.

 

I've been thinking about your earlier question since you first posted it. And I do think that the point could be -- as you mention in today's post -- that they are trying to make him the big bad for future movies. I realize you're saying you don't agree with it, that it's BTDT, but I happen to disagree.

Early on JJ had said that they were very aware that Vader was this iconic villain and they just couldn't replace him with a new villain, that the new villain would feel like a cookie cutter. So, I think they're spending 3 movies building him up and then they'll use him (and the heroes) in future films. By doing this, they'll have a complex villain that people feel invested in and know the backstory to. People wanted Snoke's backstory. I think we're getting it, but in Kylo Ren. I also think the heroes will continue, as JJ also mentioned "passing the torch" to the new generation. I believe the ST trilogy is the transition trilogy where we are moving from the old to the new and that they are just beginning. (I also think it would have been cleaner had Carrie been in Ep IX. It would have given us 3 movies to say goodbye.)

 

Eh I think if they were building him up he wouldn’t have been split to the core by Han’s murder and he would have blasted his mother.

 

I also kinda think they wouldn’t be parading his adorable baby self around in the EU....

 

TLJ has showed that Kylo Ren is a liar. What would prompt Kylo to tell the truth?

 

A liar or simply delusional or even simply mistaken.

I think PH was on the right track with his interpretation: Kylo saw Rey’s biggest fear, just as she saw his greatest fear in TFA.

He claimed it was true - sincerely, perhaps? -and Rey gave into her fear and believed him. Hence, “They were nobody.”

Kylo has not always told Rey the truth. Dark siders have indeed lied or been mistaken in the Saga. The movie gives explicit reason to distrust Kylo’s perceptions.

 

Indeed. Also to answer my own question I guess Kylo would stop lying if he found that there was no longer a benefit to lying. If lying to himself no longer protects him from the pain he's trying to avoid feeling maybe he'll start being more honest with himself?