ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode IX

Dude, this is JJ Abrams we're talking about. That's not going to happen.

 

JJA did the madness of Nero in the Star Trek reboot.

 

I suggested that he may have been including Vader in that, since he says to let old things die (and mentions the Sith). It fits with his earlier scene of smashing the mask, which was designed to look like Vader's. It was symbolic of him starting to let go, imo.

Snoke was trying to use Ben for the 'potential of his bloodline'. In all likelihood, he was the one who manipulated Ben into fanatically trying to become a new Vader. It turned him into a weapon against his own family, which is what Snoke had wanted all along.

 

Holy heck.

Never saw the TCW Mortis arc, but apparently the saying before the first episode is something like “Balance is found in he who faces his guilt.”?!

Oh my.

*Considers Luke.*

Hm.

*Considers Kylo.*

Your move, Kylo m’boy

 

that's is exactly what Snoke wanted. He wanted to destroy Luke Skywalker. And even without landing a killing blow, he managed to do that by corrupting his nephew.

But getting Ben Solo to turn, he drove a wedge between all of the OT3. As a result, Han and Leia split up, Luke went into exile (and per the Fry novel, Leia was initially fine with him vanishing after her son fell.) The strength of the OT3 is significantly diminished when they are separated, and Snoke's long game did exactly that.

Having Kylo Ren as an apprentice was a gift with purchase, but the real aim of the fall was, I believe, to destroy the Skywalker family. Apprentice Kylo was the bonus weapon to kill Skywalker should he ever return.

 

“Weaponizing” Ben appears to have been specifically done to destroy Luke when Luke got in Snoke’s way at some point.

Prior to that...I wonder if Snoke was using lil Ben to spy on Leia? I’m reminded of the “ancient eyes” comment in Last Shot. Lil Ben did not appear to have been suffering from anything in Last Shot, so whatever Snoke did to manipulate/harm him in some way, it didn’t begin in early childhood.

Snoke apparently attacked Luke in several ways, only one of which was doing whatever he did with Ben. I don’t think Luke was doing great at the point of the bedside scene.

At any rate, we really have inadaquate information re what went down at the moment. But that makes sense - why wouldn’t one leave some mystery for 9?

I hope they start teasing us with the prospect of more answers. At the moment the main thing we know will be resolved is Rey’s parentage. I think LFL could help stir fan excitement by hinting at how both TFA and TLJ will tie into 9.

 

Sure, he may have been including Vader in that, but I don't think it's clear either way. And given the intimate way in which he spoke to Grandfather, to assume that all Grandfather meant to him was being a Sith makes no sense to me. Kylo likes the dark side and finds Vader an admirable figure on the dark side (and his own grandfather) regardless of which kind of darksider Vader was. You can let the Sith die and keep Vader, IOW.

The mask is an immature wanna-be kind of thing, and Kylo no longer wants to be an imitation by the end of TLJ--he wants to be "his own man." So although he may no longer emulate Vader in the wanna-be fashion he did before, this doesn't necessarily mean that Vader (and the helmet) will not remain an idol of some sort for him. The connection with Vader IMO goes deeper than just this immature wanna-be image thing.

Yes, I know Snoke's role. But that doesn't mean that Snoke's manipulation is the ONLY thing of relevance here. Vader can have taken on a meaning to Kylo that survives Snoke, is my point.

Now, whether he wants to still "finish what Vader started" is an entirely different question to me. Because I never knew what that meant anyway. Did Snoke basically persuade Kylo that together they were completing Vader's work? This seems like a completely silly idea because Vader too wanted to be "his own man" and not be under the thumb of Sidious. So, ironically, Kylo is (in a way) finishing what Vader started because he actually overcame his master (which ironically also is quite in line with the Sith). Does Kylo through his sessions with the helmet have any idea of what Vader's actual ambitions were? Does the helmet itself still have something of Vader's essence?

The point to me about Kylo's relationship with the helmet (Grandfather) was it was "who" he talked to when he was afraid of Snoke, where he went to confess his secrets that he would keep even from Snoke. This means that relationship is greater than Snoke. He doesn't simply talk to the helmet because Snoke has manipulated him into this Vader narrative. He has this "personal relationship" with it that is apart from Snoke.

So I maintain that there is definitely NOT enough information to conclude that Kylo is totally done with Vader and that "relationship." In fact there remains evidence to the contrary.

I completely agree. It would seem pretty lacking to never touch upon this relationship again, especially in the Skywalker Saga, which began with Kylo's grandfather and is about him to the extent that really Episodes 1-6 cover "the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker."

TFA never sufficiently answered what exactly the relationship with Vader is/means entirely, and I agree it is very important regarding what side Kylo is on and WHY he is on that side. Not to mention, the more deeply Kylo knows Vader, the closer he is to knowing Anakin and the closer he is to realizing that his grandfather's decision to come back can be looked at from another POV (other than just being a failure or "moment of weakness"). If he maintains it was a moment of weakness, then he is still Snoke's man, because that was never the truth. To keep with that false narrative means he is ignorant of what Vader was. (Of course, he could just wash his hands of it all and no longer care why Vader gave up the dark side because what other people did has nothing to do with what he will do--he will no longer define himself by the past. But even if that's his attitude, the Saga itself will bring the relevance back--the past cannot be escaped in the way Kylo is trying to escape it.)

If IX doesn't address it at all, then I think we can assume Vader's only relevance to Kylo was part of Snoke's manipulations of him, and so when he was finished with Snoke, he was then finished with everything those manipulations encompassed, including Grandfather. What happened to the helmet? Well, um, Kylo just jettisoned it into space between films.

But at this point, it really remains an open question.

 

@oncafar interesting question indeed. Is Ben worshipping his grandfather because of Snoke? Or is it his own personal thing? Nothing in TLJ indicates that he's done idolizing Vader.

IMO, what i get from the movies is that it doesnt matter if Snoke manipulated him into worshipping his grandad or not, that's a detail. What matters is that Ben's relation to Vader in TFA and TLJ has become something different to his relation with Snoke, something that belongs to Ben (even if Snoke might find it helpful).

Kylo Ren doesnt seem to care abouth the Sith, he seems to care about his grandfather as a legend, the pure expression of strength, power and confidence. The fact that he turned his back on the dark side in the end is seen as Vader eventually succumbing to the light (in the sense of being tempted, like a morally opposite version of a sinner). Kylo Ren can relate to that because he too is struggling with not "falling" to the light.

I can imagine Luke forgiving Anakin for the sin of becoming Darth Vader. And i can imagine Ben forgiving Vader for the sin of becoming Anakin again... some twisted mirrored point of view

Also i find it quite implicit in the movies that Ben doesnt actually communicate with Anakin or Vader's essence. The helmet is just a relic, a symbol in front of which Ben can express himself. He imagines speaking to him, just like we sometime pretend we're speaking to someone. It's a very human trait.

 

This was my sense of it as well, that this "relationship" with Vader is "something that belongs to Ben," as you say. Something he has that Snoke can't fully dig into. Something personal.

Regarding this however, I feel like this is relevant in TFA, but perhaps no longer as relevant after the end of TLJ. I see Kylo in TLJ as embracing the dark side more fully than he did in the past in that he isn't in conflict anymore when/after he kills Snoke. He is resolved, and that never leaves him for the rest of the movie. At the end of the movie though as he's holding Han's dice, he is soaking in what that resolve has resulted in--a sort of empty misery... I am not sure what this leaves. He is no longer feeling in danger of "falling to the light" I don't think. It's not about that anymore--it's about something else. (I don't know what that something else is exactly.)

Yes, well, given how ignorant of everything that came before all of the younger characters are in the trilogy, it wouldn't surprise me if the helmet is indeed only a relic and anything of Vader was burned away--or even that there can be no essence left of him on it because he was entirely destroyed when Anakin came back to the light.

 

yes, this "empty misery" you're talking about...it's like he made up his mind but at the same time he's even more lonely, more desperate, and he's conscious of it. I think that his "inner conflict" won't be resolved at the beginning of epIX. Because that's what makes his character interesting, what defines him as a dark side character and I don't think JJ will make him a full-on baddie. Isuppose it's gonna be ambiguous, just like he had this ambiguity in TLJ. I really don't know what's in store for him ep9, and what's the fate of the character. My feeling is that he'll die unredeemed but somehow "relieved" to stop feeling this "empty misery" and somehow conscious that it's for the best. But chances are it's gonna be something entirely different hehe.

in terms of broad stokes there's not a lot of outcome for him:
A) he dies >>> A1 redeemed >>>A2 unredeemed
B) He lives >>>B1 redeemed >>>B2 unredeemed

But each possiblity can be executed in different ways. Redemption or lack of it can be more "subtle", more "grey" or ambiguous.

A1 This would be VERY similar to Vader's death. But who knows, maybe JJ and Terrio could have a fresh take on it? To me, sounds like the least interesting outcome. But you never know. If the execution is good and there's more to it than Vader's death bis, could be done right.
A2...Could happen. That would be a very dark ending for the Solo/Skywalker family. But is it in line with the "humanist" philosophy of SW movies? If that happens, then i think it will be more complicated that simply dying as a villain, something with mixed feelings for the audience, for the good guys and for Ben Solo himself. Something tragic that reveals a bit of the younger Ben that cracks through the darkness. No way he's dying the way Maul (pre-resurection), Palpatine or Dooku died.
B1....We never saw an ex-dark sider. How he can connect to the people he previously fought (and killed). Could be interesting but what's the point if it happens at the end of the movie? Maybe halfway through it? Who's the villain then??
B2...This means "sequel" and i don't believe Adam Driver wants to go back to SW anytime soon. Not this kind of actor at all. I don't believe we'll get something like that, if Kylo Ren stays 100% on the wrong side of the Force he'll be killed off IMO

So if i could choose it would be either -killed off unredeemed but with some ambiguousity, or -lives, redeemed but has to face his crimes and his past. These two sound like the more interesting stories for the character.

 

Yeah, it's like he's in a maze and his first problem is this dead end he's at regarding his conflict with the light and how it's pulling him and he can't be "strong enough." Then he manages to break from that dead end, only to find himself at a different dead end. He got what he wanted (or a lot of what he wanted), and it brings him... nothing.

 

agree 100% "at last" he rejected the light and...nothing, as you said. Emptiness on both sides. This is what makes me think that he won't be able to be neither a good guy again nor the ultimate villain. He's bound to feel nothing but pain, and not in a empowering-pain-of-Vader way, just this emptiness...emptiness in the light, emptiness in the dark.

After that we'll see what fate they have written for him. Since it's a fiction a good script can take him any path they want....some further understanding that he's chose the wrong path but can't come back like Anakin did? Rejection of everything, good or evil, a nihilistic view? Embracing the light again but facing his crimes? Rejecting the darkness but NOT embracing the light neither? a exiled galactic "Ronin" of some sort? Or simply death pure and simple?

 

I thought that aspect of Kylo was dropped and even "killed off", so to speak.

He smashes his Vader fanboy helmet.
He kills off his master.
"Let the past die. Kill it if you have to." Vader is the past.


IIRC he doesn't mention Vader at all or ask him for power or anything. They could have had another short Vader worship scene to show that that's still a thing, but they didn't. Combine that with what I mentioned above, and I'm led to believe Vader worship is not a thing anymore.

But I suppose JJ could just revert him back to TFA anyway.

 

i like the characters because of his ambiguousity, everything is open to interpretation.

The way i see it, After Snoke ridiculizes him (and that's right after him being beaten by a simple scavenger) he feels hurt in his pride. Hurt too because he's so on the nose with his fanboy attitude to Vader and Snoke just put that under his nose...but he's no vader, only a "boy in mask". After that it's no wonder Ben smashes the helmet and tries to be more his own person. He feels ashame, that's obvious to me. But it doesnt mean he doesnt idolize his grandfather anymore. He may do so but in a less obvious way, realizing that makes him still a little boy instead of a true warrior.

I dont think we needed another scene, we saw that in TFA and in TLJ Kylo tries to prove he's not just a fanboy, it wouldnt make any sense on symbolic and thematic level.


Same thing for killing the past. It's a an attitude, not the proof he thinks less of Vader now.

 

Kylo does get really angry when Snoke tells him that he's no Darth Vader, just a child in a mask.

That seems to indicate that Vader is still Kylo's idol and his goal.

Adam Driver has performed and "lived with" the character of Kylo Ren for 5 years now. Do you think his feelings and thoughts on Kylo's fate in IX came into discussion with JJ when JJ and Terio were writing Kylo in IX?

 

I doubt Kylo would've smashed his mask if his goal was still to become like Vader.

And his speech near the end, about letting old things die, certainly didn't sound to me like he was still idolizing his dead grandfather.

In fact he outright says he wants to start something new--nothing about finishing what someone else started. Not anymore.

To me it seems really obvious that he wants to let all of that go.

 

I think he smashed the helmet because he realized it wasn't making him more like Vader. It was "just a mask." I think after Snoke's rebuke of him, he realized it's his behavior and mind that makes him Vader like, not a mask. So he smashes the false thing that he assumed would make him more like Vader in order to embrace the real things he now thinks will make him more like Vader. He immediately charges out and wrecks some of the Resistance fleet and almost kills his mother. But Kylo believes dark side behavior alone will now make him as evil and powerful as Vader...Things like killing his master but remaining on the dark side. Starting a new order in his image. Destroying Luke. Things Vader never did. Kylo's still trying to be and surpass Vader at the end of TLJ. He wants to finish what Vader started. He just realizes he doesn't need a needless mask to do that. And his words to Rey don't include letting go of his idol Vader. He's only interested in letting die the real things in his life that he feels are holding him back, not his false idol he holds as an ideal. That speech to Rey was all for her benefit to "recruit" her anyway.

 

i agree on every point...except Kylo doing his speech just to recruit Rey. I think he really feels something for her..in a twisted, negative way perhaps but still, i think he sees her as a kindred spirit, someone who could understand him. I really don't think he was just trying to recruit her for her power but it's my interpretation, we'll see what happens in ep9...

 

I agree.

I think Kylo feels a genuine kinship with Rey, albeit he obviously doesn’t understand her *at all* (and vice versa).

And yes, he’s twisted. I wouldn’t say he’s actually FUBAR but I’ll be shocked if he ends this trilogy a fully functional human being.

 

“If you’re not with me, you’re my enemy.”

 

There isn't any tension, IMO, no matter what. Kylo lost to Rey in TFA. He might have been killed by the PG in TLJ had Rey not saved him. He makes highly irrational reckless decisions and is ruled by his emotions--Luke showed how easy it is to knock him completely off balance. Even though Kylo and Rey are equal in power, even though Kylo has more experience, Rey has always had the advantage, and she still does. Kylo seems even less formidable in TLJ than he did in TFA. No matter what little tricks IX does, it can't alter the two films preceding it. If suddenly Kylo is a real challenge for Rey, it will seem forced.

The problem with making weak villains in the way (especially) TLJ did, is that no one can take them seriously, and they drag down the hero in the end. It's like Poe's feat in the beginning of TLJ was kind of boring to me because he's facing off with witless wonders.

 

Yeah, he includes "the Sith" in things that need to die. That includes Vader.