ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VII

Well, the whole "black knight of the Empire" thing has also already been done, Vader was a mysterious figure when he graced the screen back in the day. The tunic/mantle is only a slight deviation from Palpatine's robe. The mask of course is grotesque like Vader's mask was grotesque. Kylo's look is "mysterious" for exactly the same reasons that Vader's is.

Altogether it seems hardly original, like you just took elements from previous SW villains, especially Vader, mashed them together and changed them up a little bit so you can claim you did something "new".

It is a very "safe" and corporate design. Like they thought to themselves "audiences liked Vader, so lets give them a bit more of the same stuff, just slightly different".

At least that's the impression I am getting and not only from Kylo Ren, but also some other lazy designs like the recolored TIE-Fighters, bigger Star Destroyer, etc.

It's like the new TIE-pilot compared to the old one.

 

is there anything you don't complain about?

 

I see you post alot and it always seems like you're in a bad mood. Are you alright?

 

good question.

 

The new TIE pilot design is great - better than the original, IMO. A natural progression from the OT, really.

Agree to disagree on TFA design. I think it does what good design does best: memorable, iconic, and new, without being completely impractical or disconnected from the environment and history of the GFFA. A lot of the PT designs, IMO (though mostly in AOTC and ROTS) felt like an entirely different universe. That was the result of Ryan Church venturing pretty far beyond the GFFA aesthetic. Some original ideas in there, to be sure, but it felt like spaghetti being thrown at a wall. Not enough paring down to basic shapes and silhouettes. Not enough control, which is a friend of the designer.

 

I really like Kylo's helmet. For one, even though it pays homage to Vader's helmet, it stands out for its "black with silver highlights" front and slightly shorter back of the helmet compared to Vader's. Of course, since it is obvious how "Vader obsessive" Kylo is gonna be, it should come as no surprise he emulates Vader's helmet designs. Throw in the "Sithcalibur" saber, hood up and long flowing robes and sleeves, you get something entirely different. And no, his helmet looks nothing like Revan's.

Seriously, how can Kylo not look cool?

 

Well, aside from some rare great designs like BB8, I don't find much memorable or iconic. It's mostly just imitations of previous genius design-work. So we'll just have to agree to disagree.

But I don't fault them too much for doing what they think the audience wants.

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It's an interesting question. But why ask me? I described neither Kylo nor Vader's designs as "subtle."

I lamented what I saw as Maul's complete lack of subtlety. Sure (What can I say? I just thought he looked like such a silly and over-the-top, 'ultimate' version of what is supposed to be "scary.").

But I never even brought Vader (or, by extension, Kylo) into my message until I offered that, in addition to Maul's lack of subtlety, I also felt the character design lacked any sense of mystery about it. I said that, to me, Vader wins-out because his look not only had the menace of a Maul, but also a large element of mystery about it (something I didn't really get at all from Maul).

And I pick up on some of that mystery from Kylo. The mask, of course, is a big part of that. The radical weapon helps. I suppose that the look feels more medieval-inspired, as opposed to the eastern, warrior monk look I've come to expect from SW Force users over the past fifteen years, or so, adds to things, too. I may not feel the same kind of mystery at first-look from Kylo that I did Vader (no surprise, there). But far more than I ever did with Maul.

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That said, I can also readily admit that a lot of what intrigues me about Kylo right now are things which actually have very little to do with his design. The question of whether he may be from the Skywalker clan is huge. And knowing that Ren has been described by those in-the-know as a layered 'baddie' who is well-intentioned? Committing terrible deeds while viewing himself as the hero of his own movie? That kind of character (while by no means unique to SW) appeals a whole lot more to me than a one-note, weaponized animal.

In fact, though I wasn't thrilled with the idea of bringing Maul back from the dead at the time, it wasn't until we were treated to a more thoughtful, cunning Maul; one with designs of his own; that I began to really appreciate the character as anything more than that guy who, while entertaining and engaging to watch in action, really did little more than flip around a lot before killing-off a truly intriguing character in Qui-Gon Jinn.

TCW made me an avowed fan of Maul.

Yeah, I can totally see how a being sporting a set of body markings; markings which suggest a hidden, esoteric meaning; is naturally intriguing.

The thing is, when I first laid eyes on Maul, I presumed that the 'tattoos' were nothing more than a natural feature of the species' skin. I was actually surprised when I first heard the "Sith tattoos" fan theory.

So what for you were tattoos which "clearly" held some deeper meaning were, for me, just... well, just skin. Nothing more "mysterious" about it to me than that.

[And when you think about it, there's nothing onscreen which tells us that the markings were "special" in any way. In fact, the revelation that all of the males on Dathomir had similar markings could be read as evidence of the very opposite. Do we know for sure (canonically, I mean) that they really even are tattoos? I'm not against the idea (as I say, I actually think it would be points in the design's favor), I'm just curious if it's ever been settled, once-and-for-all?]

Either way, I did think the yellow and black palette of Savage Oppress was a good look. I certainly liked it better than that whole 'faux red devil' thing Maul was shackled by.

Right. But again, why bother saying this to me? I never once implied that my opinion was anything but subjective. That my word was law. On the contrary, I went out of my way to say things like "to me" I found Maul's design unrefined, one-dimensional, unsubtle, etc.

Oh, and I know it was just a figure of speech, but saying I didn't give Maul's features a "second glance" implies that I didn't give his look a fair shake. That wouldn't be accurate. I did. I just didn't buy into what they were selling the same way someone else might have.

I loved how graceful Maul's movements were. And his duel with Kenobi and Jinn was a true highlight.

Eh, but the same way so much of my current interest in Kylo goes beyond his design, I kind of feel as though the attributes you mention here have very little to do with Maul's look. I'm speaking strictly visual design, here. With that in mind, Maul's flowing dressage is really little more than a dye'd-black version of what the Jedi are wearing. Which, in turn, are really kind of what Uncle Owen was rocking all those years ago on Tatooine. And very little about that said "graceful athlete" to me. More "comfort" and "utility" than anything else.

To be honest, that's maybe the worst thing about the whole thing to me.

Alright, so the aim is to bring us our worst nightmare made flesh and they opted for the most generic, "Star Wars-devil-with-a-lightsaber" look imaginable? **Zzzzzzzzzz.**

I apologize for the snark, but the whole "Grrr. Look how scary I'm supposed to be!" thing just doesn't do it for me. I mean the red and black? The rotted teeth? The horns?!? Someone is trying far too hard to hammer home one single, blunt message for my liking.

You know what? It occurs to me just now that it reminds me a little of Pinhead:


You know that guy? I once dated a girl who thought that was the gnarliest, most terrifying thing she could ever conceive. And never once did I begrudge her that.

But where she sees a high-water mark in 'bad guy' design, I find it ridiculous and goofy-looking.

I guess that the 1999 me found TPM Maul a little silly in the same way I always have someone like Pinhead. But minus any of the originality or mystery found in Pinhead.

Fair enough. On these points, we disagree completely. Sometimes that happens.

I... guess? The thing is, to me, that doesn't distinguish Maul from either Vader or Kylo. I say this if only because -- strictly speaking (and if we didn't already know any better) -- there's nothing about the look of Vader or Kylo which says they couldn't be alien, too. So to me, design-wise, that's a push.

Frankly, I think a lot of what we've seen and heard from this production comes off as a soft reboot of what we've already seen. I agree with that much. Though if you're saying there's nothing at all new about the look, I can't co-sign on that one. There's the weapon you mentioned, but I would also point again to the medieval flavor of the design. And I think you hit on something that may merit further attention: That Kylo represents "Darth Vader, minus the life-support." That may actually hint to an aspect of his character (and so may have been a part of what the design team was consciously, purposefully striving toward).

What can I say? I still like the look of it far more than I ever did Maul. Sometimes quantifying all of the reasons why one finds something aesthetically pleasing can be difficult.

But it's not all bad on the Maul front. There was one design I did like. One which hinted at some really cool potential:


I know it's just the same old Maul, but in a different robe. But I don't know. Something about the high collar and (particularly, I think) the bodily pose suggests a calm, centered, almost priestly Maul.

And if so, then for a being reared on the Sith Code -- particularly someone who originated from such a place of ferocity as Maul -- this is a very, very intriguing prospect. I sure hope we get to see this Maul actually put to use one of these days.

Spoiler

And recent rumors about the eventual release of the Invasion of Mandalore arc offer me hope.

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To everyone else, apologies for the long post. This seems to happen every now and again when Miss Pevra and I wander into a conversation.

 

Fair enough. Can't argue taste.

I just thought it was unfair to criticise poor Maul on a lack of visual subtlety when that is true of all the SW villains so far.

I agree with all of this and said similar things in the past. I like everything that Abrams said about Kylo Ren, he is very intriguing to me. Just not his design. But I can live with that as long as the personality and story are engaging.

We've been talking so much about his character and background so far that I think it's alright to talk about his outfit too a couple pages at least.

Interesting, I admit I never thought of them as natural markings, for some reason they always were tattoos for me. Does anyone know when the Zabrak were invented as a race? Did they come from the EU or were they invented in TPM?

Now, in 2015, Maul's markings have been described as tattoos so often that you can say that's established. Zabrak also usually don't have these markings, which means it has to be some sort of pain. The tattoos are applied to Dathomiri males but for what reason remains mysterious.

But even if they were genetic markings one could wonder what they're for. Like the feathers of a male peacock?

Maul's markings are just another interesting thing about his detail, because they pose questions.

Maul's garments look somewhat like the Jedi's, it seems a popular design for force sensitives, nothing wrong with that. It also looks eastern, similar to what an eastern monk would wear who studies martial arts. The connection is there.



Maul:



You see, there's some new stuff going on compared to the OT (which also sports terrific designs of course). And maybe you now understand why I said "graceful athlete" and how this is enhanced by the look?

Pinhead was a great design, kids loved it. Same as scream mask. What is it with people in this thread belittling designs that worked fantastically? We laugh about it because it is great, otherwise we'd have forgotten it.

I don't think you can objectively state that Maul's design doesn't have many things going on, I just explained several of those things. This is a matter of fact and not of taste.

If they were non-human, we could discuss that, but they're not. So yes, Maul is different in that regard.

Isn't Vader of medieval design? He is Samurai- and European Knight inspired.

So in that regard, again, Kylo = Vader

Hm, I don't like the robe that much. It looks a lot like Obi-Wan's hooded robe.

No problems for me.

Edit:
Wait a minute ... what about Eeth Koth?! So yes, it is absolutely canon that Maul's markings have to be tattoos.

 

When I was a kid, I thought that maul was mysterious and creepy with his hood on. By the final fight he didn't seem as menacing... Maybe it's the horns that make him kind of cheesy. He goes from slightly demonic to full-on generic demon.

 

When I was a kid, there was no Maul.

I'm an old geyser.

 

Maul was basically the character equivalent of wall paper paste. He looked the part, undoubtedly. Anyway, thinking back, how inspired was it to have JEJ voice over Vader in the end? Even now, as a physical presence, I find Vader viewed from behind more intimidating. The long, flowing black cape. The jet black SS style helmet. The way I see it, as much as a JW score is the most vital ingredient of a SW film. JEJ voice for Vader was the most intimidating aspect of him.

 

I was like five when I first saw a hooded Maul on a Mountain Dew can

 

I was twenty-five.

 

now I'm almost 25 and there's probably some little kid out there seeing kylo on MD bottle. "again, it's like poetry so that they rhyme"

 

My 6 yr old boy think Kylo is cool looking.

 

Kylo is not a carbon copy of Vader. At least in my opinion. I think there are things to Kylo that are obvious gimmicks: the Lightsaber is an obvious one that is riding on the Darth Maul popularity from having a unique weapon, same with the Mask. Basically his design is meant to mimic the two most visually iconic villains in the mask (Vader) and the weapon (Maul). But at the same time, Kylo as a character is not a copy of either of the two. So I think saying that Kylo is uninteresting is not the right conclusion to draw from what we have seen so far.

 

I'll wait to see Kylo on film before I make a judgement on him.

 

I gotta agree with Darth Pevra.... The Episode 7 'look' of the film is very frightening as a hardcore SW fan. Its hard for me to say this, but everything i've seen so far , which i admit is not a whole lot - looks like a complete Star Wars A New Hope rip off. I am very concerned my fears will come true. That this Force Awakens movie will just be a complete rehash of A New Hope. Rey being Luke. Dameron being Solo. Luke being Obi Wan. Kylo Ren being Vader. Snoke being Palpatine... You get the point. You even have a Tatooine / Hoth / Endor looking planets in the film too... The costumes are ever so slightly different than the OT - just for a fan service ? And the Empire vs. Rebellion has already been done. Now it looks like First Order is the new Empire and ressistance is the new rebellion. Which means our heroes in OT accomplished nothing.

That is the negative side. On the positive side - JJ Abrams. I loved what he did with Star Trek. I am a fan of him as a director and he's a smart down to earth guy who is a great filmmaker that knows what the fans want. He is a fan himself which helps. Also, seeing the original cast back might bring a tear to my eye! Seeing them 30 years later will be so epic - even if its a rehash, still might get a pass as long as Luke is swinging a green lightsaber at some folks.

I don't know....I'm split on The Force Awakens and the whole sequel trilogy to be honest... Disney spent 4 billion on the rights to Star Wars - they want their investment to turn into profit , so they'll give us any corporate produced film just so we get excited and buy tickets. Now if its a classic great movie is up to who they decide to hire. Honestly - Lawrence Kasden as writer and JJ Abrams is literally the dream filmmakers for this, imo... I really couldn't think of a better director / writer combo to work on a new sequel trilogy.

The older I get, the less faith I have in accomplished talent. Sam Raimi - Spiderman 3.... Shane Black-Iron Man 3....I could go on and on about that... But Disney wants to see some money come in so they'll do anything to get back their investment asap and thats a little worrisome. In 1998, I truly believed Lucas could do no wrong. He made Indiana Jones trilogy & Star Wars trilogy. The fact he was coming back to make another SW trilogy was my dream come true. To see young Vader and Obi Wan and how Vader was going to be seduced by the dark side to eventually get to that epic event of Obi Wan vs. Anakin - This was something I wanted to see on the big screen ever since i was born....and then I saw it......ugh..........You wouldn't believe the disappointment I went through after that. Thats when I realized the filmmakers behind the project is a coin toss. Either it could go great or awful. And in the world of franchise movies with beloved classics - it tends to go awful - REALLY quick. Some exceptions - Tron Legacy, Star Trek reboot, Nolan Batman Reboot, every MCU movie except IM3. But Lucas & Sam Raimi really killed my faith in directors returning to their franchise movies that they made previous brilliant ones.

The rumors of the story sound atrocious to the highest level. The look of the film and from what i've gathered looks like a complete rehash. Luke having a cameo role would really really suck.. But like I said - I haven't seen it. So maybe there is a major pile of surprises in there. Like we barely see Luke - and then just as Kylo Ren is about to kill Rey - LUKE appears and kills Kylo. Seeing old Jedi MASTER Luke kill the main villain would be just insane. By now - he is the last Jedi and the most powerful Jedi out there. So overall, all I can do is speculate until I see the film. But truth be told - there is just no way it can be worse than the PT. JJ Abrams is smart enough to know what the audience disliked about the PT and probably will correct those mistakes. And using the words 'practical effects' when discussing the making of Episode 7 is a big plus.

 

I hope we will get a scene showing Kylo Ren without the hood over his mask.

 

I like this post, i think it's well stated, and it echoes many of my own sentiments in some ways. I could take or leave TPM and AotC, but i think RotS is great, so we disagree there, but overall, good post.

 

I'm thinking we'll get that and a scene where he's completely unmasked. a lot of people are saying that won't happen 'cause mystery or w/e but this is one significant area where kylo is a unique villain. he doesn't have a 'mystery' face like vader. they're going to play on the idea of this guy putting on a persona while living in the shadow of what came before him (publicly wearing the mask, and a bit of vader worship) and the more confused interior (scenes where he's by himself unmasked)

 

Not even Vader would have had to wear the whole mask, he could've just worn a rebreather Malak style (or Plagueis style, ugh, I feel like I used a dirty word just now). But he wanted to hide away his face, probably because he was ashamed of his Anakin past. And of his mortal frailty of course. While he wears the mask, he is Darth Vader. There is no more Anakin or mortal frailty.

Kylo could be similar. I think Abrams hinted that he came from a simple background. Maybe he too is ashamed of his former, weak and pathetic, past. So instead he puts on a mask which allows him to become a true Ren instead of "Kylo Smith" or "Kylo farmer-boy".

 

I think this is how kylo and vader are inherently different. vader was good, chose to go evil, and was ashamed of it. in universe, a part of it was because he had to, but also 'cause he was ashamed of his past. in a sense, the mask was hiding his true self. out of universe, it's cause of the whole mystery thing as well, which is enhanced by the fact that he's more machine than man (what would his face even look like?) those chamber scenes where we see the back of his head really get you imagining it.

kylo is way different. I don't think kylo is trying to hide from his past, at least not in that way (in some ways he is, hence rejecting han's pleas). I think that in some ways, kylo's mask is actually an extension of his real self. he's not hiding from his past, he legit doesn't know what to make from it. he's really confused and unstable. he finds purpose in his life with the knights of ren, which includes his vader worship. this gives us a completely different dynamic. he's also not more machine than man, much younger, etc. so if I were writing this I'd include one scene unmasked (where he's talking to the vader mask) that gives us a glimpse of his 'isolated self' and how he emotes and all that. then at his most emotional moments (sitting on the falcon, confronting han) he's wearing his mask but it's left to you to imagine what's going on behind the mask. kylo should have something different going on aside from 'what's behind the mask?' getting that out of the way sets up something that is just as 'mysterious' but in a different way, and that's one way kylo is already different from vader.

 

BretHart

I really wouldn't like that. I want Kylo to survive and become a villain of substance who spans multiple films, not a one-off villain like Maul or Grievous. You mentioned that you're worried about TFA having too much fan-service, but to me, a scene in which Luke jumps in to save the day and kills Kylo would definitely be fan-service. I'm actually kind of reassured by the rumors that Luke's screen time is limited. JJ and LK surely know that there are plenty of fans would love to see Luke running around kicking ass, but that's not the story we're getting, which tells me that maybe this movie WON'T be so concerned with fan-service, after all.