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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VII

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by Momotaros, May 2, 2014.

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  1. Darth Anomaly

    Darth Anomaly Jedi Knight

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    Oct 21, 2015
  2. One Quarter Portion

    One Quarter Portion Jedi Master star 2

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    Apr 9, 2016
    That was... Um... Interesting...

    lol
     
  3. DL44Jo

    DL44Jo Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 7, 2014
    My understanding is that when Kylo says, "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I can do it. Will you help me?" he's referring to killing Han. It's what Snoke seemed to be referring to when he said, "Even the Master of the Knights of Ren has never faced such a test" as they were discussing Han. It appears that was the task Snoke posed to Kylo to completely destroy Ben and embrace the dark side. So after Han says, "Yes, anything" in response to Kylo and Kylo kills him, he says, "thank you" for allowing him to complete what he "had to do".
     
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  4. themoth

    themoth Force Ghost star 5

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    Dec 5, 2015
    Agreed. Kylo twisted Han's words into permission to kill.
     
  5. DL44Jo

    DL44Jo Jedi Knight star 3

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    Aug 7, 2014
    Kind of - that's not exactly what I meant. I think he would have killed him either way - I was just referring to the real meaning to what he said. Although, how he said it may have been deliberate to gain Han's trust and lure him in closer, making it easier to kill him.
     
  6. TheReal_Rebel

    TheReal_Rebel Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 17, 2015
    Now that we know through Bloodline shocking events influencing Ben, his turn to the DS seems more plausible than it had been. The implication was Ben "having too much Vader him", that is--born bad.

    Imagine having a father thinking that about you.
     
  7. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Unless he knew ahead of time, thanks to Snoke.
     
  8. TheReal_Rebel

    TheReal_Rebel Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 17, 2015
    If you mean Han, why would Han believe anyone who wasn't Luke or Leia talking about his son?

    If you mean Ben was told by Snoke. It's unlikely.

    Snoke was not in his life yet, as far as we know at the time of the book.

    While I'm aware JJ has said Snoke was influencing Ben from a "young "age. "Young" could mean 23, Ben's age while still with Luke at the time of Bloodline.

    Besides Leia revelation during the book is so shocking, it is to Snoke's advantage to let things evolve or manipulate events behind the scenes to allow things to fall out for Leia and her family as they do to to divide them.

    This is all gravy for Snoke and likely starts Ben's fall.

    1) Put Ben in a likely situation of being ostracized by his peers.
    2) Likely succumb to anger in defense of his mother and strike out.
    3) Anger towards his parents and Luke.
    4) Ostrcizes himself from his family and seeking answers looks towards another father figure force user.

    Enter Snoke.
     
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  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Leia suggests in the adult and junior novelizations that Snoke was "manipulating Ben all along". Possibly from before she sent Ben off to train with Luke.
     
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  10. TheReal_Rebel

    TheReal_Rebel Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 17, 2015
    That could mean from the time he was 23, just as easily.

    Not from the time of his birth.

    They will have to show when Snoke's influence began and it is more likely to have begun when Ben is at his weakest, estranged from friends and family.
     
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  11. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The TFA novelization strongly implies that Ben was showing signs of being "dark" early - and that sending him away with Luke was an attempt to counter that.
     
  12. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 4, 2016
    The problem for me with the "Emo" Kylo Ren having motivations similar to those described by the OP is that in order to sell such a character and still give him weight you need time.

    The genius of "I am your father" isn't just that its shocking for Luke but that it instantly sells us Vaders motivation whilst keeping him as a character with a lot of gravitas, a father wanting his son to follow him is such a simple universal concept that it doesn't need any kind of drawn out build up.

    Honestly looking back I think the simplest way to build Kylo(and indeed Han) would have been to have Leia die between ROTJ and TFA, again the loss of a parent is such a simple concept that it wouldn't take masses of time to build up and easily feeds into the motivation for a desire for more power/control.
     
  13. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 14, 2015
     
  14. The Legions of Lettow

    The Legions of Lettow Jedi Master star 5

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    Oct 14, 2015



    Is there a delete function? I don't like double posting. And it isn't our responsibility to see if our posts are embers within a post we're replying to. Stupid technology!
     
  15. mihaitzateo

    mihaitzateo Jedi Knight star 3

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    Oct 5, 2015
    When Padme got pregnant with Anakin, Anakin was already fallen partially on the dark side.
    So, Luke did not inherited this inclination towards the dark side,he rather is more close to his mother.
    While Leia inherited more from the dark side attraction of Anakin.
    This attraction was transmitted to Ben Solo.
     
  16. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 28, 2016

    wait WHAT?
     
  17. nonesuch

    nonesuch Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 18, 2015

    ??? I'm not sure what you're confused by. In the bold bits I'm just saying that Han and Ben have extremely different characters, as reflected by the contrast between Kylo's intense self-seriousness and Han's more happy-go-lucky take on life.
     
  18. ForgottenMaster

    ForgottenMaster Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 29, 2015
    I would venture to say that Leia was probably focused on rebuilding the republic and when her relationship to Vader was revealed to the galaxy, the resulting division allowed the First Order to take hold, and ultimately, she split away to lead the resistance. I would guess than Han probably wasn't used to being a settled down father with a wife who was consumed by politics. Young Ben probably didn't have the best home life. He probably resented his parents and resented the ever-ongoing conflict that his mother refused to walk away from.

    I bet they sent him to Luke after it was too late. Ben probably already had a lot of resentment and that's probably when Snoke saw his opportunity to start grooming him...promising him a quicker path, more power, and a peaceful galaxy.
     
  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    He had two parents who loved him. He absolutely did have the best home life.
     
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  20. Darkspellmaster

    Darkspellmaster Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 20, 2015
    It's up in the air on that one. We know that Leia and Han were keeping in contact, or at least trying to, and that Ben was with Luke at the time of the occurence 6 years ago. We also know that, in bloodlines, Han and Leia did spend time apart due to their personalities and their own jobs. Not that they didn't love each other but he was the racer and she was the politican. We also know that Leia did remember a happy Ben when he was younger rough-housing with his friends, getting dirty and being proud of it. However we also know that she "wanted to tell Ben at the right time" which seems to have been never. Or at least it wasn't in 23 years of life. So we know at least they were keeping things from him, which kids do and will pick up on.

    I'm going on speculation, but here's my thoughts about his home life.

    -Loving mother who was embroiled in politics, while she made time for her son seemed more invested in keeping the peace and, at least to him, seemed more interested in dealing with the whole of the Galaxy.

    -Loving father who was invested in his racing, seems to have kept contact with him, though, like his mom, seemed to be a bit of a free spirit and couldn't quiet settle down into a kind of stay at home dad, and was leaving a lot of the time, vs. being there for him.

    -Loving Uncle who, was working with a lot of other force senstives, and who may have been a bit busy in worrying about how the Jedi work and missing a few things in regard to his nephew.

    -Had to probably be raised a lot of the time by babysitter C-3PO, who as we know, would have probably insisted upon Ben acting like his station (IE, that of a prince to the Alderaan people) and trying to groom him for probably becoming a Jr. Senator. Or something of the like.

    -Ben, apparently had friends that he hung around with, which he seemed happy when he was acting like a normal boy.

    -At some point his Mother felt that he should go by his uncle to train his force powers. Maybe they were becoming to strong.

    -It appears, according to Bloodlines, that Leia was hiding Ben's powers, and probably also having him hide them as well. This could have been for several reasons, but it looks like, at the very least, Leia didn't want people making assumptions about Ben or that his force abilities could have raised Red flags about their family.

    -Leia kept the secret of her father from him, feeling that she would tell him at a time when she was ready to explain it to him.

    -On top of this you have both Leia and Han mentoring other people and not mentoring Ben. Neither his mother nor his father are playing mentor to him at all it seems. In Bloodlines it's mentioned that Han is mentoring other racers, spending time with them, and teaching them the same way he did with Luke when Luke was younger.

    -In Leia's case she's mentoring the future politicians and trying to keep the Populist side of things afloat.

    -Luke is probably also mentoring other students and Ben, if he's not been with Luke since he was very young (probably started with Luke when he was a late teen) he's going to have to compete with the other students for attention from his Uncle.

    -So you have some factors here:

    1. Ben was more then likely raised more by C-3PO most of his childhood, as the protacol droid worked closely with Leia.

    2. Ben's powers were kept secret from everyone, as Leia didn't want people knowing about them.

    3. Ben had some friends, though we don't know who they were. only that he seemed happy when he was hanging around with them.

    4. Both of Ben's parents were very invested in both their careers. Han as a famous Racer who spent a lot of the time away from home doing those races, and Leia busy with the New Republic and helping build up a working Republic all together.

    5. Leia and Han were busy mentoring younger people involved in their respective careers, and neither seemed to be mentoring Ben -or at least it's not mentioned at all if they did (which you think that Mrs. Gray and Mr. Johnston would have at least noted in the book in some way).

    6. Luke is private by nature and avoiding being involved in the political side of things, so Ben probably didn't get to talk to his uncle a lot.

    7. Leia kept quiet about her family's ties to Darth Vader, even from her son.

    8. Leia at some point in time felt that Ben was going to need to learn to control his powers, something that he had, for a portion of his life, to keep secret from everyone for whatever reason (Probably because of the fact that people could put two and two together and figure out that Padme slept with a Jedi).

    9. Speculation on my part but given that Anakin was strong, as was Luke and apparently Leia is too, Ben naturally would be as well and he probably is a bit like Kyp Durron was when he was younger. In this case, if we use Kyp as a templete here, Ben more then likely excelled on his skills as a force user and probably: a. Wanted to learn more but Luke felt he was learning to fast and tried to slow him down on that, b. Because he was such a fast learner, other students probably felt that they couldn't quiet stack up to Ben, and may have treated him a bit differently due to him being strong in the force as well as being Luke's nephew.

    10. Assuming that Snoke still was calling to Ben during this time, much like Exar Kun did for Kyp when he was training with Luke, you can also add on that Ben had to deal with a weird voice in his mind talking to him all the time and not being sure what to do about it.

    Now with those taken into place my guess is that Ben started out okay, but probably felt a bit lonely because his parents were busy and he was taught by C-3PO. As he grew older, he made friends who were able to play with him and give him some normalcy for at least some of the time. However he also was dealing with the fact that his force powers were growing naturally as he aged and that Leia probably told him not to use them in public, or not to tell people about them as she herself didn't mention it to anyone, even though people knew that she and Luke had them.

    As Ben grew he also probably felt that his father didn't want to be around him given that he was gone during parts of his childhood, and he probably did witness some of the fights that Han and Leia had, resulting in his mother missing his father. Add to that Han was famous from the racing and he had his own group that he was mentoring. Since he was into a sport this means that Han couldn't just jet off back to wherever Leia and Ben were living at the time, although he talked to them by holonet, still, as any story about a rich kid with a busy father or mother will tell you, Ben probably felt rejected and hurt that Han was mentoring other racers and was busy being away from his family. He also probably felt some of that too with Leia as she was mentoring younger jr. senators and their kids.

    At the same time, if his powers were starting to manifest and he was showing anger, from feeling that he was being written off by his busy parents and had no way of addressing them because he couldn't show them off, he must have also felt a bit upset that the one person that could have taught him about it was hard to reach, that being Luke since -again, he kept out of the politics.

    So you have three family members all genuinely loving Ben, but all probably busy with their own lives that they weren't able to deal with a young child. Now add on this, if Ben did feel closer to his mother then his father, it must have been both a positive and a negative for him to go by his Uncle. On the one hand, he probably felt that it would help him or at least he probably wanted to believe it would because Leia felt that it would, on the other hand, if he was close to Leia he may have felt that she was throwing him away the same way it probably seemed like Han didn't want to hang out with him.

    Now place a young man on a planet away from some of the few good things in his life, his mother and the few friends he had, and everything he knew. Throw in a master who genuinely wants to help but maybe dealing with outside issues and probably has Ben training with other students who may have been training longer and have a different view of the world. Then mix in lax communications with said people that he likes to be around, and, if he's not having a good time with it, a sort of homesickness, and you have a very easy to sway person who would be ripe for the picking of someone who could easily play with their mind. Add to this a voice in the back of said emotionally confused young person, and on top of that a very dangerous revelation that sweeps the galaxy and may have wound up being heard by said emotional confused young man, who finds out it's true.

    Right there you have the makings of a very volcanic eruption. Said person would probably feel betrayed by his parents and Uncle, lied to by them as well, used and hurt for being forced to keep his powers a secret as if it was something bad, and then finding out, not from his family, but from an outsider who doesn't know a thing about his family and that this revelation is now hurting his mother and his Father, who's supposed to protect her, isn't there for her. Is it any wonder that Ben fell? It's nearly a perfect storm of a situation.

    Again this is all speculation, but I'm drawing from past stories that followed similar tropes and if anything Star wars is known for it's tropes.
     
  21. GeneralOrgana

    GeneralOrgana Jedi Knight star 1

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    Dec 24, 2015

    The nature of this seems pretty plausible but the timing is off, at least according to what was presented in Bloodline.

    The revelation of Leia's parentage (to the public AND to Ben) didn't happen until 6 years prior to TFA, by which point her political career had become very stagnant and procedural. Based on what was said in Bloodline, for all intents and purposes her involvement in any conflict ended with the Empire; for quite some time, any fighting she'd done was apparently limited to petty bickering on the senate floor. Though the New Republic had been successful in restoring and promoting peace throughout the Galaxy, in the recent absence of Mon Mothma due to illness, nothing was getting accomplished because of divided political factions.

    Leia felt like she wasn't doing anything meaningful, and she was planning on leaving politics altogether to go travel with Han, when a rare & random opportunity for a mission presented itself at a senate hearing and she volunteered - figuring it would be one last bit of good she could do before she retired. One last hoorah. Ben was already off training with Luke, and Leia and Han were still very happily married (albeit unconventionally, as he was off traveling for work most of the time).

    That mission was essentially the catalyst for the discovery of the FO (who were already strategizing and organizing at this point and had huge militia built up), the revelation of Leia's heritage, and the end of her senatorial career. That mission is what reminded Leia how great it felt to be back in action and making a difference, and as a result, what led her to spearhead the Resistance. Again, only 6 years earlier. When Ben was 22, 23, etc.

    So aside from Han having a racing career and being gone a lot (presumably), the idea that Ben had a terrible childhood doesn't really hold up. Leia might have been a working mother, but she wasn't completely absent, nor was she off leading rebellions or anything crazy. She was fulfilling her duties as a senator.

    I think Ben potentially felt abandoned simply by having been sent off to train with Luke in the first place. Then came the major contribution to his fall: the way in which he found out about Vader (Leia didn't have a chance to tell him in person before someone outed it to the whole galaxy). Factor in Snoke's manipulation (which for the record was why Leia sent Ben to train with Luke - it didn't occur after the fact), his personality in general, and of course, Ben's own personal choice to be an evil mass murderer... And, well, there you have it.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  22. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Mar 4, 2011
    No, it's not "up in the air."

    Leia and Han loved Ben. Every decision they made regarding him was with his best interest in mind.

    The assumption that parents who have careers do not love their children is wrong on more levels than I can count.

    You keep bringing up Kyp Durron, Kyp Durron was not a whiny unappreciative brat who emoted about his "soul being torn apart" before stabbing his father to death. I liked Kyp Durron. I'm seeing no comparison whatsoever.

    Your "speculation on what happened" is an attempt to paint Han and Leia as bad people because they dared to be "busy" in order to make Ben look like a victim.

    If some of us are going to be sold on the idea that Ben "had a bad childhood" or was a victim, the arguments are going to have to be much better than "his parents were busy." I've read all the canon sources related to TFA and I know Han and Leia from the OT.
     
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  23. SoloBrothers

    SoloBrothers Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 17, 2013
    I wonder if Poe was one of his friends. I know that he's a couple years older, but I still like the idea that they had a previous (non-homosexual) friendship
     
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  24. loststars

    loststars Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 22, 2016

    "The droid.....stole a freighter"

    and the "maybe the Supreme Leader should start a clone army"

    sounds EXACTLY like Han (and Leia's) snarkiness. He is truly their kid.
     
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  25. Dame sans merci

    Dame sans merci Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2016

    'They're certainly skilled at committing high treason' was my particular favourite.

    Trying to think if we see any examples of that snarkiness once the mask comes off...?
     
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