ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

Deep down Han knew Ben was too far gone. He said as much himself. But Leia thought otherwise. Han went out on that walkway, against his instincts, for Leia. If he brought Ben home, perhaps the family could begin anew. Han said he could talk his way out of anything. I'm guessing he knew this was going to be a stretch, but he'd try anyway. He always rolled the dice in his life and managed to survive. Perhaps that luck would continue.

 

The most important thing in that scene is Han touching Kylo's face. Cause that's basically Lily's Sacrifice. Something that Snoke/Voldemort didn't count on. These type of stories always have love in the center as what breaks the spell/defeats evil. GL said it himself, SW is made for children. So messages are always going to be positive and optimistic. Even ROTS had "there's good in him" and closing shots of babies.

And Kylo immediately regretted what he's done so that's that. It's in the movie, JJ said it in the commentary, and it looks like he's slated to participate in bringing the balance to the Force.

 

There was nothing robbed when it come to Han's death. I'm with Gigoran Monk. There is nothing more important to me than my children. I, like many parents, would lay my life down if it would save them. Han's sacrifice was one with clear eyes. He knew exactly what he was doing stepping out there. He knew he may not make it off the bridge alive. But he did it any way, because he didn't see a monster. He saw his own son, and he was willing to lay down his life if it meant there was a glimmer of hope that Ben may eventually come home.

And if there is to be a return to the light, then Han's death definitely was not in vain.

 

the comparison is that even after kylo ran han through with his lightsaber, han loves and forgives him (his love is unconditional). the touching of kylo's face is like a symbolic imprint of it on him (marking him). and kylo would have likely felt han's love through the force. han coming to kylo to begin with was with a willingness to sacrifice himself in the effort to save his son from the dark side. it's powerful stuff. and if kylo comes back to the light, han's sacrifice/love will end up being a big part of it imo. it could be the thing that slowly fractures kylo inside as the trilogy goes on (as change often doesn't happen instantly).

 

I think the comparison is that parents will go to great lengths, even self-sacrifice, in order to protect or save their children from evil. Lily sacrificed herself to save her innocent son from evil. Han was attempting to do the same for his son one last time. The only difference is that evil was already inside Kylo.

Furthermore, I don't think it really needs to be blatantly spelled out why Kylo hates his parents when the subtle hints for his motivation are laid throughout the movie. Clearly, Kylo (like the other groups in the GFFA in the ST) are choosing to be bound to what they think is their legacy despite that legacy being a failure. Same as why Han returned to smuggling, his old legacy that he was good at, or at least better at than being a father... or so he thought. That is until he finally came to grips with that legacy, when he returned to action and tries to save his son.

Examine Kylo for a moment. He comes from not only political, but also religious, royalty. However, he's born to a mother who has shied away from her Force potential and instead focused on the political side, and a father who is without any Force talent. Even though Kylo probably feels better than them both, deep down he can't rid the dread that's he's inadequate. He probably knows he doesn't measure up to his grandfather, or maybe even his uncle. Knowing that his own grandfather could have ruled the Galaxy and been the most powerful Force user ever, he probably fantasizes that he could fulfill that destiny, if only he isn't weak. But he is. And with pride and jealously, his hatred of his weak parents fuel his journey to the dark side. Just as Anakin was possessive of his wife, Kylo is possessive of his rightful legacy.

And he's a perfect villain for our age. Privileged spoiled brat who thinks he's entitled to the legacy of his fore-fathers while insisting the somehow his plot in life isn't quite fair.

 

I've always felt that Kylo's killing of Han wasn't out of pure evil, but was more to just prove a point to himself, his dad, and whomever he is serving, I guess that would be Snoke, that he is actually evil. I found it to be actually quite juvenile, as if the mentality behind it was more of "Oh, you don't think I'll do it?" than actually being a genuinely evil thing to do.

I also find it laughable to think that there could have been any way for Han to bring back Ben as if they could just go back to being one happy family again. Maybe Ben would start working and attending classes at the local junior college while he lives at home and figures out his next move in life? Come on now. Even if Ben wanted to abandon Kylo Ren and the First Order, he has still committed murder, genocide, and a whole range of other treacherous acts that he would need to account for. And what would that make of Han and Leia if they harbored and hid this criminal, who they and their allies had previously fought against, from facing any sort of consequences for the acts he has committed? I think the only point in "redeeming" Kylo would be to show that Snoke is simply manipulative and not some all controlling powerful entity. But even if in his own head on a moral and personal level Ben wants to remove himself from being Kylo Ren and from the grips of Snoke and the First Order, he still has to face the music over the atrocious things he has done. He would not be exempt from that and should face the full gamut of whatever legal consequences await him. And if they would like, Han and Leia (or just Leia now) would be more than welcome to visit their little Ben in prison as he awaits execution.

 

Evil already being in Kylo really doesn't negate the sacrifice of a parent trying to save their son. If you kid is sick, you want them well. If your kid is evil, you want them to stop suffering or harming others. Han wanted to save his son from himself. Maybe it was highly unlikely to work, maybe Ben didn't deserve it, but that's what makes it a sacrifice. Han was willing to try one last time, knowing that he could die. Maybe, just maybe, this one time, he could finally get through to his bratty evil son, face to face.

I'm not a parent, but I would think even if my son was 'evil', I would want to do everything I could to save him from that evil, whether from another person, or from his own self. That said, it doesn't relieve or forgive Kylo of his past evil actions one bit, it's merely an attempt to do anything to save the child.

And yeah, he's totally unlikeable right now. Which is great. I don't think you're meant to like him at all. And I don't think Kylo is after redemption.

 

I have trouble with the analogy as well. Lily was trying to actively block the killing curse meant for her son. She was a shield and died saving his life. She's protecting an innocent life.

Han is doing something different, he's risking his life knowing there is a huge chance his son is going to kill him. He's trying to bring a his damaged and evil son home. He doesn't care about the odds, because he loves his son. And if we go with the novelization to get into Han's head, he forgives Kylo in one of his last thoughts. He's more on par with the loving and concerned parent knowing he could get shot or whatnot, but still goes into the drug house to bring his heroin addict son home and gets killed in the process.

Yes, both are loving and noble acts of parental sacrifice, but their motives are different. One is trying to prevent death, one is trying to drag someone home that is already corrupted and damaged.

 

Something to keep in mind... we don't know Kylo's motives and his whole history yet. KK and PH have said quotes to this effect, he's got a troubled adolescent backstory "we don't know much about", "The story of [Ben’s] fall, when it started, how he reacted to what, etc. isn’t out there, so careful with assuming how it happened.” etc. I always see a lot of sweeping statements and judgments about what motivates Kylo as if they're fact when we literally don't know what went on yet.

 

i think the comparison centers on the child being marked by the unconditional love of a parent who was willing to give his/her life to save his/her child.

although han isn't trying to directly save kylo from death, in a way he is trying to save him from destruction. he tells him snoke will crush him eventually. he knows that kylo is destroying himself. he says, "my son is alive." so there is a life/death theme here.

 

So much this.

Honestly, I find the "Ben Solo was a spoiled brat suffering from affluenza" a really over-simplified excuse to dislike a character. This is Star Wars, there is meaning behind what characters do, not "he was a brat, so he went evil."

Really, that's the best the storygroup could come up with?

TFA was an introduction to the new characters. We don't know much about Rey, Kylo, Poe or Finn. They are still very much all blank slates at this juncture in the story.

I strongly suspect we are going to get a heaping helping of Ben Solo's backstory. I believe that strongly enough that I will eat my shoe and broadcast the event on Youtube if the storyline turns out that he fell to the Dark Side because Mumsie and Daddy didn't buy him his own starship so he decided to screw over the family and go on a murderous rampage.

 

As I interpreted the scene, I thought Han knew he was going to die if he walked out onto that bridge, but he did it anyway because even if there was only a chance in a million that he would save his son, he had to take it. And since Han was always willing to take the risk ("never tell me the odds") I think it was 100% in character for him.

 

I think the bigger question is, what is it that drives a person with a seemingly comfortable, loving home life get morally lost and confused? This is very different to Anakin's story.

Exploration of that question does not necessarily translate to tacit endorsement or approval.

 

I get the impression that Episodes 7 and 8 will handle the explanation of Kylo's turn to the Dark Side MUCH better than the PT did with Anakin.

I'm somewhat concerned by the whole "Snoke was corrupting Ben from birth" because it seems like a cop-out, a way to explain how a child of a loving, attentive family could turn to the Dark Side without, say, just being born a psychopath/"bad seed."

The fact is, if Kylo is essentially "under Snoke's spell," how on earth could the heros - especially those related to him - possibly seek his destruction? That spoiler(?) about Luke wanting Rey to kill Kylo in Episode 8 makes ZERO sense. I mean, considering what Snoke's done to Kylo, is he REALLY as morally culpable as, say, Darth Sideous, or even Darth Vader? Shouldn't Luke be trying to help Kylo, not kill him? In ROTJ, despite Vader's evil, Luke refused to kill him. Does an older, wiser Luke think "Man, that was dumb what I did back then. Sorry Kylo; you're my nephew and were corrupted from birth by an evil power and you're nowhere near as entrenched in the Dark Side as Vader, but you're just too dangerous to let live. Can't take any chances!"??

 

And this is a question really relevant to current events.

 

I dunno all this talk of Han been killed and yet we knew he killed a whole village full of men, women and children. It wasn't like his father was the only person he killed. He's a mass murderer, that keeps being forgotten about. You see I keep saying it and genuinley mean it, this is one movie in three. I like everybody on here don't know what is going to happen and don't give me all that meta turd, you may as well throw that out the window. You can see anything if you look hard enough. For Kylo to be redeemed I want a strong reason for why, a strong story, one in which I can empathize but at this moment, its not there. That's not me been an 'anti' or a 'troll' its just me looking at things which are in the movie. At this moment in time its running on empty.

 

JoJoPenelli - yeah, i'm not worried about the movies doing a good job with kylo's backstory. i was pretty impressed with what ep. 7 did with the character, and hope that ep. 8 might even exceed that.

 

Struggling, no. Questioning? Yes.

I know Kyo was injured, and I know he let up (at one point in the duel) but, she has never held a light sabre until this battle, and Ren is a powerful, experienced force user clearly adept at light sabre combat. The scene works if simply ignore most of what we know about force users, jedis and sabre combat.

To each their own. I still liked it. I just felt it would have made more sense for Rey to be bested by Kylo, not the other way around. But, J.J. I feel wanted a fist pump moment. So they went a different way.

 

It's beyond me why you don't see how the moment lacks gravitas without explaining WHY Kylo hates him so much. Or with better inferences.

What we do know is that, Han, Leia and training from Luke is pretty much as a good a foundation as a young force user could possibly hope for. Are we to assume they were bad parents? Or bad people? Or Luke a bad teacher. I don't believe any of those things. But I suppose we must fill in those blanks ourselves to lend credence to the moment.

Will we get an explanation as to why in future films? Yes. But again, at least for me, that moment will always be a bit of an eye roller for the smartest, cleverest guy in the galaxy that has survived one hot potato after another for decades.

The real problem here is that, Han (Harrison) was only going to sign on for one film. So he had to die in Force Awakens for emotional heft. The scene wasn't bad. The idea wasn't bad either, but you simply have to again, suspend belief and come to conclusions on your own for it work.

The problem with that is, and to my point about Kylo vs Rey, is that Kylo loses credibility as a character you believe. And that's a slippery slope when he is the main antagonist in a trilogy.

 

I completely agree. Let's also remember he's a high ranking member of the First Order, which blew up multiple planets and kidnaps children to raise them as soldiers. I don't doubt Kylo will be redeemed in IX, but the concept of anyone magically coming around to forgive him within one film seems preposterous. It also seems to waste what JJ said about his character in TFA, which was that it was the dark side awakening in a villain.

 

i think one difference between kylo and vader, is that vader is psychologically stable for the most part. he has "anger management" issues for sure which he "manages" by choking his officers to death. but for the most part he isn't caught in some constant internal struggle and on the verge of psychological breakdown. he also has a firm sense of his identity. it's strange to me to think about kylo's failure/defeat without also thinking about his psychological instability.