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Official Info Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in Episode VIII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by RX_Sith, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Luke02 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2002
    star 5
    @JoJoPenelli

    Maybe Luke thought the training was going so well, the darkness in Ben had faded completely. In the novel version of TFA, it sounded like everything was going really well for Luke including the training of Ben. Plus if it is true he thought Ben was the chosen one (*gags*), he maybe would overlooked Ben's temptations to the dark side. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda did with Anakin so perhaps he did the same with Ben. Plus Luke isn't Superman Jedi. He is flawed.
    jaqen and oncafar like this.
  2. JoJoPenelli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2000
    star 5
    I'm sure there was a reason. I just don't think we got all of the relevant information in TFA.
  3. What Girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2016
    star 4
    I was referring to the point when he actually turned. But it seems implied in the books that Snoke had been influencing him since before he was even born.

    Leia, noticing this, tried to handle it on her own until she realized it wasn't enough. Perhaps he'd been contacted by dark siders and was being tempted. I remember reading somewhere that he'd begun to "join gangs" although I can't recall the exact context.

    But something convinced Leia to send him to Luke, against his will from the sound of it. I can see Snoke taking full advantage of that event as well, making Ben feel like he'd been abandoned by his parents even if he actually wasn't.

    Well, Ben might not have wanted to be a Jedi in the first place. It doesn't look like he chose to go to Luke; that decision was made for him by his mother. Hence Leia's guilt and hesitation when she does the same with Rey, except in this instance, Rey clearly wants to go.

    Also, being thought of (perhaps erroneously) as a "chosen one" is a nearly impossible standard to try to live up to. Ben, who'd never been told the truth about his grandfather, would not have understood the darkness inside him and where it came from.

    I can absolutely see the family being torn apart with Ben finding out the truth that had been denied him.
    11-4D and IncessantRamblings like this.
  4. JoJoPenelli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2000
    star 5
    All sorts of possibilities.

    Thing is, most of it is guesswork. We don't know Ben didn't want to go to Luke. We don't know Luke and Ben's relationship (although the idea that Luke held Ben to impossible standards seems contradicted by the Obi-wan/Luke analogy). We don't know what they were up to in the UR. We don't know that that "darkness" was Snoke. We don't know that all it took was to learn that Darth Vader was his grandfather to send Ben on a homocidal rampage. I certainly hope it wasn't.

    I'm betting we'll be getting a bit more of that story. I don't think JJ expected the GA to leave TFA thinking Kylo was just a poor lost soul; in fact, JJ has said that he had Kylo murder Han to make him appear especially villainous. I'm sure we'll start to see a different side of Kylo in TLJ, but that will require some backstory. (Which will necessarily include Luke. Meaning that Luke's backstory is *not* catagorically "unimportant.")
  5. What Girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2016
    star 4
    I said that I felt it was implied in the text, and I gave my reasons for believing so. His feelings of abandonment match with an unwillingness to go and train with Luke. I'm speculating, not claiming anything to be absolute, concrete fact.

    Ben was born to a famous family, was targeted by Snoke since the beginning (according to Leia), and there are signs that he didn't volunteer to go to Luke (Ben's feelings of abandonment + Leia's reluctance to send Rey). Now we're hearing that Luke considered him as a chosen one. It is a lot to live up to.

    "Contradicted by the Obi-Wan/Luke analogy" - where did Kylo and Luke's relationship get officially compared to that? I've never heard of it. Please cite a source.

    In Bloodline it was said that they went on expeditions. We know that they are familiar with other explorers like Lor San Tekka. I figure we'll learn more about the expeditions and possibly see an example of one in TLJ with Luke and Rey. Exploring the first Jedi temple sounds like an expedition to me.

    You can see from TFA that the darkness was most likely Snoke, since that is who Ben now serves. You can see the final result. That darkness now has a name and a face, which Leia understandably could not identify at first when she sensed the darkness around her unborn son. However, she tells Han in the novelization for TFA that Snoke had been manipulating their son before she truly knew what was going on. It sounds to me like she figured it out later.

    If you completely disregard Snoke's influence, it may not seem to you like a sufficient reason. Leaving Snoke out of the equation entirely is what creates a strange blank. Remove Palpatine as a factor in Anakin's fall and it won't make sense, either. I believe Ben's turn to the dark side was a combination of Snoke's influence, contact from dark siders, Luke's unrealistic expectations, and the Vader reveal. There are really so many possible reasons for his fall that can be gleaned from the canon text and film.

    A character can be both a villain and a lost soul. It doesn't have to be strictly one or the other. The SW databank describes him as more lost than ever, and in this article he is called "The Lost": http://ew.com/movies/star-wars-last-jedi-teaser-posters/the-lost/

    This is what I wrote in the parentage thread on the subject. You were quoted.
    oncafar and IncessantRamblings like this.
  6. JoJoPenelli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2000
    star 5
    Just a few things:

    Again - that're you're interpretation of Mark's "Luke's backstory is mot important" line. Since we appear to agree that that is not literally true, what he does mean is not self-evident.

    I should also mention that "why Luke is on Achoo" (which is a part of Luke's backstory) IS important and has *not* been explained yet, as per RJ. So yes, in TLJ we will indeed be learning heretofor unknown important Luke Skywalker backstory.

    As for the Luke/Ben - Obi-wan/Luke analogy:

    “[Luke] made a huge mistake in thinking that his nephew was the chosen one, so he invested everything he had in Kylo, much like Obi-Wan did with my character,” Hamill says.

    First EW article on TLJ.

    You appear to be inferring a great deal from what little we have. Which is fine, but it's not necessarily true or directly indicated/supported by the canon material. I'm not sure how satisfied you are with what very little we've been told about Kylo's fall, but I think a good chunk of the audience will need to know more before they can get on board with Kylo's redemption.

    ETA: I think JJ/Kasden very much intended audiences to see Kylo as villainous in TFA:

    “Star Wars had the greatest villain in cinema history. So, how you bring a new villain into that world is a very tricky thing,” Abrams told the crowd. “We knew we needed to do something f—king bold. The only reason why Kylo Ren has any hope of being a worthy successor is because we lose one of the most beloved characters.”

    http://ew.com/article/2015/12/21/jj-abrams-kylo-ren-shocking-act-star-wars-force-awakens/
    Last edited by JoJoPenelli, Sep 3, 2017
  7. What Girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2016
    star 4
    I linked you my post so I wouldn't have to repeat myself here. Either read what I actually wrote on the topic or drop it, please.

    Okay, thanks.

    As I said, I'm speculating, not stating my opinions as fact. I addressed this is my previous response to you. I told you explicitly that I'm not claiming any of my interpretations to be absolute fact, and I have taken care to phrase my posts to reflect that.

    I never said this is all we'd be told about it. Of course I'm expecting to see more. TFA set up the basics and TLJ will expand on them.
  8. JoJoPenelli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2000
    star 5
    You stated the following in the post you linked to:

    "TLJ not going into Luke's backstory most likely means we've already been told what we basically needed to know about his past, from TFA." (Direct quote)

    But RJ has said TLJ *will* go into Luke's backstory and that TFA did *not* basically tell us what we need to know about Luke's past.

    30 years of backstory? Heck no, not even close. But it sounds to me that you're insisting that we'll learn nothing new about what happened to Luke. And that simply is not true, as per RJ.

    I took the tone of your speculation to mean that we don't need additional explanation of what happened re Kylo, but apparently I misunderstood. Sorry about that.
    JediAce1 likes this.
  9. What Girl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2016
    star 4
    Mark Hamill said that TLJ does not go into Luke's backstory very much, and I believe he was referring to the gaps between the major events that have already been outlined for us in TFA. That is what my post was based on. I disagree that TFA didn't tell us the basics. The film told us about Luke and Kylo's master/apprentice relationship, that his new order of Jedi got destroyed, and that he abandoned everything to go in search of the first Jedi temple. I think these events will get further explanation as they pertain to Kylo, who is the Skywalker legacy child and one of the new characters of the saga. This is an important relationship that got set up in TFA and Luke/Kylo's history is key to the central plot. I absolutely expect to learn more about that. What I consider to be very unlikely, however, is the reveal of a secret wife and daughter out of nowhere.
  10. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    I understand relating to teen angst and rebelling against your parents, but in no way shape or form can I relate to someone who kills his classmates and his own father. That's a step too far in feeling any kind of relatability towards kylo. He honestly reminds me of one of those school shooters you see on the news.

    And this is my problem with Kylo in comparison to Anakin's fall to darkness. Anakin fell because of love and fear. The fear of losing that love due to the people he thought he could trust. He also lived a life of poverty as a child in contrast to Kylo who grew up in a wealthy family. Judging by RJ's quote above, Ben Solo just went through an angry rebellious phase as a teen and that's the heart of why he betrayed his family. I hope there's A LOT more to it than that as far as his motivations are concerned. I'm not too sure that there is but we'll see.
    Last edited by JediAce1, Sep 4, 2017
  11. Darth Gummybear Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2016
    star 2
    Yet Anakin murdered innocent children in his fall to darkness. Anakin's past does not justify that anymore than Kylo's past does. Besides, Anakin's motives were not pure either and were impacted by his own fears and desires.

    I do not think Kylo's fall is being presented as merely a RL angry teen rebellious 'phase'. Especially if the audience is meant to relate to the emotions involved, on some level. I think Rian is referring to the identity crisis many young people go through when trying to discover who they are going to be, where they fit and what they want in life, along with the tragic pitfalls some people can fall into. Especially when there's a legacy like Vader and powers like the Force involved. We are not supposed to relate to the acts Kylo takes, but to his emotions and struggle. And because this is Star Wars, these issues and their resolution are presented on a much more epic and symbolic scale than they would be in RL, imo.
    Last edited by Darth Gummybear, Sep 4, 2017
  12. zam wesell2005 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2015
    star 3
    He can be redeemed, not that they should do that. From what we know from interviews though about Kylo and the TFA novel, these two turning to the dark side is not the comparable, at all.
  13. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    I'm not saying Anakin's motivations were right. I'm just saying that they were compelling, interesting and made sense why he followed the dark path.

    Obviously, we don't have the full story on Kylo's fall but words from those involved in making the film and a little bit of logic tells us that not everyone will be satisfied with the explanation. Pablo told us that Han and Leia were great parents and treated Kylo with love and care. His relationship with Luke is a bit murky but they need to be careful not to try to tear Luke down as a morally good character in order to build sympathy for Kylo. Obviously Snoke had a dark influence on Kylo but the blame shouldn't be 100% on him. Kylo needs to make his own bad decisions, not decisions manufactured by Snoke whispering in his ear.
    Last edited by JediAce1, Sep 4, 2017
  14. MagnarTheGreat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2016
    star 4
    Abrams and Driver said that Han and Leia sucked as parents which is funny because they now don't want us to think that anymore it seems.
  15. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    I suppose rian changed some things around. Now let's hope they stick the landing. [face_praying]
  16. JoJoPenelli Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 14, 2000
    star 5
    Didn't PH say in a tweet that Han and Leia were not "bad parents"?

    I don't know how to find that tweet again tho...
  17. oncafar Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2017
    star 5
    can you acknowledge there is a middle ground between parents who suck and perfect parents? i honestly don't think the story or its creators are judging leia and han as terrible parents. but you seem to be. i don't understand why this fallacy persists.
  18. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    If Kylo felt the need to kill his dad and the desire to kill his uncle, they must have been pretty terrible people, right?

    Why does Kylo feel so much rage to these two people? Pablo has stated that Han was a great and loving dad to Kylo, so what's the deal?
  19. zam wesell2005 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2015
    star 3
    He didn't want to kill Han Solo. He was told to and felt it would make him stronger in the darkside.
  20. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    If he didn't WANT to do it, then Han would still be alive.
  21. sls062286 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2016
    star 4
    I think the point being made is that, had he not been pushed by Snoke he probably wouldn't have had any desire to kill his father, even as Kylo Ren. As it stand it seems like he didnt do it specifically because he wanted Han dead, but because he thought it would end the torment inside him.
    Last edited by sls062286, Sep 4, 2017
  22. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    It goes without saying that Snoke has influence over Kylo, but his actions and choices are still his own. You can't just place all the blame on Snoke and wipe the blood off of Kylo's hands.
  23. sls062286 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2016
    star 4
    I'm not talking about who's to blame, just what his reasons for making that choice.
  24. MagnarTheGreat Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2016
    star 4
    At least Golbez had the excuse of
    Final Fantasy IV (open)
    Zemus mind controlling him. Even so, Golbez felt terrible after he broke away from his control.
  25. JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 2014
    star 5
    His reasons for making that choice are not entirely known to the public. His reasons for killing his classmates are not known to the public.

    It'll be pretty lame if we come to find out the reason he made those choices is because Snoke told him to.