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TFA TLJ Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by RX_Sith, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    That doesn't make a lick of sense.
     
    nonesuch likes this.
  2. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    They’re from the soon to be canon The Last Jed extended edition novel. Due out soon. Some of which has leaked.
     
    kylosympathizer likes this.
  3. Birkendoc

    Birkendoc Co-Purveyor of ST Trivia star 4 VIP - Game Host

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2001
    Leaks from the upcoming TLJ novelization.
     
    kylosympathizer likes this.
  4. ewoksimon

    ewoksimon Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 26, 2009
    "I didn't hate my father."

    I'm starting to think about that line a lot. That might be the start of Rey's (and the audience's) turning sympathies towards Kylo.
     
    kylosympathizer and Birkendoc like this.
  5. kylosympathizer

    kylosympathizer Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 28, 2017
    The line in one of the very first scenes in tfa "something far worse has happened to you"

    Does this line make anyone else wonder about decisions kylo/Ben made and decisions that were made for him?

    This kind of implies that becoming kylo ren happened to him
    He could have said "you've become something far worse"

    Idk does this make any sense


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It can also mean what Kylo has done to himself. He remarks about how "old" Lor had become. As if a man can become anything else while continuing to live. So Kylo is attributing Lor's agedness as if it his failing. And Lor is suggesting that what Kylo has become, by his own will or otherwise, is far worse.
     
    civilsecret likes this.
  7. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    What on earth is sympathetic about not hating Han in this situation? So instead of being remorseless about murdering a father he hated, he’s remorseless about murdering a father he didn’t hate?

    I’m starting to think maybe there’s a generational disconnect or something? Because this reasoning makes zero sense to me, like it comes from an alternate universe. In my day (lol) sympathetic meant something else. Well I mean, it still means something else in this day to me. Sympathetic might be, for example, Kylo felt killin Han would help something or other, or Han deeply hurt Kylo in the past, or Snoke was holding something over him. Sympathetic is not “I murdered my father that I didn’t hate to help secure my position on the dark side and be who I was meant to be.” That’s the opposite of sympathetic. I feel like if that is supposed to be sympathetic, Sheev had a super sympathetic backstory. He was evil because he wanted power. Dang. I’m moved.
     
  8. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    The fact he didn't hate Han but killed him anyway means that Kylo is more dangerous because it mean even people who Kylo doesn't have hate can be killed by him
     
  9. La Calavera

    La Calavera Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2015
    To me he sounded like a sociopath when he said that.
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    It sounded to me like he was vocalising the cognitive dissonance at not being empowered, as was surely promised, by killing his father. Han had denied him the act of killing him in anger by showing compassion to his son. But Ben believed he had no choice. When the deed is done and it rewards him only with deeper conflict and contempt from Snoke instead if recognition he's forced to compartmentalise it as a false start. It's Luke that he hates and needs to destroy with his anger in order to become empowered. Luke confronts him but does not offer the compassion that he knows Ben will not accept. Instead he disarms him by making himself unkillable by his hatred. Now and forever.
     
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  11. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I don't think Kylo wanted to kill his father in his heart. He denied his own heart by forcing himself to do it. He wasn't angry with Han like he was with Luke. The two are very different.

    Luke's point was that Kylo isn't ending his pain this way. His killing the past philosophy doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
    Lost_Hope, rorow1 and Martoto77 like this.
  12. AhsokaSolo

    AhsokaSolo Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2015
    There’s a lot of writing for the movie happening in here. All Kylo said is he didn’t hate his father that he murdered, then he casually changed the subject in response to a young woman grieving his father that he murdered. Whether he was angry at Han or not, whether he hated Han or not, he demonstrated in that scene zero remorse. There is nothing sympathetic about remorseless patricide.
     
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Or remorseless infanticide.

    Subtext isn't written for you.

    Betrayal and murder of a father figure. (and vice versa) in order to assume a higher, darker power has been a regular theme. Nobody is saying that it's sympathetic. But Luke showing compassion to Vader was the catalyst for his father to rehabilitate himself and his legacy, somewhat.

    Unfortunately, but credibly, that legacy is more ambiguous to others besides Luke and the audience. Hence Ben's misguided efforts to "finish what he started" His motives have reportedly been cultivated in Ben by Snoke. The previously stated and demonstrated MO of dark side seduction and the state of affairs since the end of the GCW allows us to fill in the details.

    Fear for his wife's safety does not make Anakin's choices sympathetic but the resolution in ROTJ was satisfying. Ren's misguided endorsement of his grandfather's objectives is only as unsympathetic as you require to define Anakin's story. It stands to reason Ren's story has the potential therefore for a similarly satisfactory resolution.

    In a dramatic sense, it's credible that the sins of the parent be visited on his children.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
    Lost_Hope likes this.
  14. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Anakin’s slide sounds okay on paper but falls apart under scrutiny.

    “A Jedi can’t teach you to bring people back from the dead or save Padme.”

    “Okay.”

    (A little while later)

    “Where are all the Younglings at? I want to kill them all because I’ve been seduced and reasons. I love Padme you know and she will love me killing these little kids as an expectant father. And let’s never talk about bringing back the people you love from the dead again even though that’s the part that seduced me. And then let me kill the woman I love because her role in this story is over. And then let me at my Master. All because of love. All because I want to save people. All because of powers I never ask about again.”

    Anakin’s more likeable because of how he was before his slide and because he saves what he loves at the end which ties into what he couldn’t do before but his actual Dark Side slide and Vader period feels more like an excuse to finally give into the dark desires he’s had for a while and it’s even more psychotic, strange, and unjustifiable as anything we have seen on screen from Ben Solo.

    I think with interesting and charming villains like Anakin and Ben Solo everyone comes at them differently as fans and that’s part of the magic of Star Wars.

    Think Anakin’s an incredibly controlling and narcissistic dolt who never really loved anyone but his mom truly and instead just hated losing because every loss to him was like a pod race loss and his ego was so huge he couldn’t stand not being in control of everything? And that even as a young man he wanted an Empire because he was tyrannical? And that the good in him was smaller than many of his fans think and reserved more for his desire to ensure the longevity of his offspring out of pride and ego of his bloodline and less about them as people he’d hoped would go on to have good lives? That’s your prerogative. What’s more... you could hate him more as a villain or like him for that. It’s personal. Think he’s an angel with a huge heart who had his loyalty corrupted and was simply a robot and not himself at all until Luke helped him become a person again? That’s your prerogative, too. Think Kylo Ren represents privilege and is basically a spoiled Joffrey-like Prince / high school shooter that just wants to watch the world burn? That’s your perogative. Does that help you despise him and therefore make him a more evil antagonist for you? That works. Think he’s more sympathetic than that and see a path back? That works too.

    One of the best parts of exploration of the toxic and troubling relationships in Star Wars is that they are personal to each viewer. Some can look at Vader and his kids and see an abusive father dynamic and for a lot of children of abuse, or who witnessed their fathers hurt their mother’s, they may be less quick to redeem him simply because he killed the boss who was hurting his child even more. Others see it very differently and like a Christian forgiveness allegory right down to him making his way into Force heaven afterward. People can see these villains differently.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
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  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    See my reply in the Rey thread. ;)
     
  16. Blastaar

    Blastaar Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 25, 2015

    My point wasn't to argue over whether or not anakin's backstory was told well. My point was to highlight the fact that he had an actual reason for being seduced/embracing the darkside. Kylo Ren, currently does not. As I have no interest in this character anymore, this is all I have to say on this thread.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    An "actual" reason doesn't make it a good reason. If Ren agrees with his grandfather's reason then how is it not an "actual" reason.

    Considering Anakin's reason are not an acceptable reason by most people's standards for what he agrees to do, the actual reasonbis not of primary importance.

    Since the reason is inadequate, it must be considered that the person's judgement is already flawed and they were vulnerable to adopting extreme measures when their loyalties and perceived destiny are confused.
     
  18. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Now that some of us who grew up with Star Wars are parents... the thought of your child being loved and provided for and still making absolutely horrible decisions for themselves that impact others is truly scary. There’s drama just in that for a lot of people, I think. We grew up asking “Can you imagine how crazy it would be if your dad was as evil as Darth Vader?” And now 30 years later it’s “Can you imagine if your kid somehow became a monster despite having a lot of things going for them?”

    Again, I think Star Wars is at its most powerful when it’s presenting these uncomfortable concepts and what if scenarios into our minds.
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  19. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Any attempt to compare Ben's fall to the dark side with Anakin's will fall short because after both TFA and TLJ, we still know next to nothing about him before he became Kylo Ren. His parents say that Snoke had influenced him. What does that even mean? Luke says he sensed the dark side in him. That is so vague that it could mean anything, and therefore means nothing. Kylo Ren's backstory is interesting on paper, Han and Leia's son as a fallen Jedi, but it doesn't actually exist in any meaningful way. It's really nothing at all compared to Anakin who's character develops over 3 films all culminating in his fall from Grace.

    It is absolutely baffling that TLJ tried to explain it all in a hasty, disorienting and impenetrable bit of confession by Luke. How could you create a character who is supposed to be so complex and leave him a total enigma? It's basically malpractice.
     
  20. DjTomek

    DjTomek Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2018
    You answered your own question. The audience knew less about Anakin's fall before the PT than it knows now about Kylo and his fall. Same thing with Snoke and the Emperor.

    These stories will be told one way or another, either on the silver screen or in other formats, but not before the trilogy ends.
     
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2018
  21. Glitterstimm

    Glitterstimm Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 30, 2017
    So you're saying they are going to make another prequel trilogy to explain the sequel trilogy? That would actually be . . . kinda cool. And I'd say the chances of it happening are about zero. Either way, I think it's only fair to evaluate TLJ on its own terms, not within the context of books, comic books, toys etc.

    Comparing Kylo Ren to Darth Vader doesn't work either because the two characters are asked to perform entirely different functions within their respective trilogies. Vader was never meant to be a sympathetic character, he didn't even take off his mask to reveal a human face till the very end. He was introduced as a monolithic avatar of evil and only very gradually did they add subtext and nuance to his character. Kylo is being hoisted up to immediately fill a distinctly different role. He is supposed to be a tormented young man with personal relationships to the principal cast. Unfortunately, none of those relationships with his parents, his uncle, or his dark master are explored at all. The audience is meant to assume aspects of his character based off of cinematic tropes and signals. His parents are good people, so there must be some good in him. The heroine claims to see good in him, so he must have some redeemable qualities. He's always angry, sad and conflicted, so he doesn't really want to be a bad guy. He is young, so he must still have a chance to change. He is a tragic character, but only by implication. It's all a poor substitute for good storytelling.
     
  22. modaubr

    modaubr Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Meanwhile, Erik Killmonger...
     
  23. DjTomek

    DjTomek Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Feb 20, 2018
    Im saying that you want to much information from 2 hour and 30 minutes movies that may or may not matter to the characters in the film, about a character that may or may not be the central piece. Anakin's fall and the Emperor's backstory weren't revealed for 20 years, in movies that focused solely on them. That was mostly due to how George ran things, maybe things will change now with how Disney is running it, maybe we will get a animated series chronicling Luke and Ben.

    You can evaluate TLJ however you want, but the right way is to evaluate it as what it is, a small piece of a greater story, and Lucasfilm will most likely delve deeper into it once the trilogy is over. If you care that much about Ben's fall that should make you excited, you will get books, comics even a TV series or a anthology film who knows. Its not realistic to bankroll a 250 million movie for every question or mistery in one of the episodes.

    Also, you get atleast a bit of info about how Kylo feels about his family in several instances, about Han when he stabs him on the bridge, he didn't hate his father, he says so in TLJ, its just that he felt betrayed by his father, he thought he was weak and foolish because he let Leia dictate things in regards to Ben.

    He loves his mother that much is clear from TLJ and he hates Luke more than anything, he probably thinks Luke is responsible for his tragedy, and in a way Luke is, he made a huge mistake (understandable, and human) in regards to his nephew.
    What i got from the trilogy so far in regards to Ben Solo and his family is a failure to communicate that led to tragedy. Im sure many of us can relate to this in regards to our families (communication i mean, not the killing part)
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    Lost_Hope likes this.
  24. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    We have see him do some things that do not seem to fit the pure profile of someone that is purely evil. It’s not much but these 4 acts do seem to remove him from being 100% evil.

    1) Choosing not to fire on the bridge because of what might happen and
    thinking about trying to stop the missiles even after it was too late according to the boon

    2) Telling Rey that she isn’t alone when she’s feeling it most and upset after her Dark Side cave visit.

    3) Stopping to fight Rey in TFA when he has her up against the cliff as an adversary and telling her he can teach her about the Force.

    4) Refusing to kill her even after Snoke reveals he played him and calls him on his weakness and tells him this is his final test. If he was pure evil he possibly could have killed both.

    5) A love and admiration for his grandfather that’s misguided.

    It’s not much but there ARE some actions there beyond the fact that we have seen that he doesn’t seem to take pleasure in aspects of this job and the good buried deep that he’s apparently repressing that Rey has seen from her time in his mind.

    But one of the best parts about Kylo Ren is that love him or hate him, sympathize with him or loathe him, want him to improve to be witn Rey, or hope he never has any chance with her at all... they can allow work for each viewer to make the experience different.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
    Martoto77 likes this.
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    And that isn't necessarily a bad thing. At least that means that it's still potentially much better than the spurious psychology that we were given to explain Anakin's "reasons" ( momma died + wifey might die + can't prevent all deaths = cause many deaths).

    Anakin didn't have the excuse of an errant grandfather whose shoes he believes he's rightfully stepping into.