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TFA TLJ Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

Discussion in 'Star Wars: Sequel Trilogy (Released Films)' started by RX_Sith, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I absolutely see the reverse lineage angle of “I want to be a Jedi like my father before me” becoming “I want to lead the galaxy like my grandfather was born to do but wasn’t strong enough to complete” becoming a big part of the early perspective shift and likely the propaganda of what started him on his path.

    The first step was likely feeling like he was alone and didn’t belong in his own family. His dad was a smuggler. His mother didn’t really use the Force to the degree he perhaps thought she should have or could have.

    The second step was likely learning from others (Snoke perhaps?) who his grandfather was. How could something like that not be an epiphany for a young man with power and some anger and ambition? It isn’t hard to imagine him feeling like the black sheep of the family to starting to think his parents and uncle were and that he’s closer to Anakin than any of them.

    The third step would have likely been propaganda of some kind. Once you learned your grandfather was Darth Vader how could you not inmerse yourself on his history and that war? It’s not hard to imagine him justifying the actions of the Empire and more than that... realizing that the factions are just the armies but on top of it all was his family on both sides and coming to the conclusion that it isn’t really about Sith or Jedi or Empire or Rebellion but rather Force-aristocratic dynasty where Skywalkers rule vs the potential for democracy where they are kept in check. It’s sort of the Magento view in that way, I think. Rather than suppressing their gifts and falling in line... Magneto believes he and the Mutants are meant to be in charge of things. This is probably why he says it’s time to let the past die and that he doesn’t care about any of the old orders or their goals.

    There are slight suggestions to these things based on what we have been told in books and learned in the films but other aspects just seem logical assertions to me based on his character.

    To me it seems clear that he sees the Skywalker bloodline as the bloodline who should be ruling the galaxy. He wants to finish what his Grandfather started. He wants family heirlooms and sees them as his birthright. He thinks his Grandfather was created by the Force to rule and has blessed his decendants with the same incredible powers and his descendants before him are squandering that with limited ambition and by marrying non-Force users or not even marrying at all. Snoke has also told us on screen that Vader let his love become a weakness and has been programming Kylo Ren to see his own morality as a weakness and the same thing that stopped Vader from accomplishing the generational dynasty of Skywalkers at the top that could have been.

    If things move in this direction in IX in a more overt way with him talking about how his bloodline was made to rule it wouldn’t surprise me at all. He seems to see a lot of this as his birthright and that he is course correcting for the family tragedy that stopped his grandfather and his kids from doing what they were meant to do: Rule the galaxy. So, it’s power and lineage and dynasty he’s bought into most, IMO, and not that he truly enjoys killing non-Resistance personnel or loves lots of suffering from people on planets any more than someone like Poe likes killing FO people and watching FO people suffer. There’s murder on both sides in war and celebration after victory but in Ben Solo’s case we seen him go beyond that when he killed his father. So, he’s further down the Dark Side path by his choices but is he further down it than Vader is by the start of the OT? I’m not so sure of that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  2. JediAce1

    JediAce1 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 8, 2014
    Does he love his mother?

    No one is going to convince me that Kylo Ren had no clue Leia was on Crait when he ordered the FO to attack the base. If Rey can sense Luke's death from across the galaxy then Kylo should be able to sense his own mother mere feet away from where he stands.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  3. sls062286

    sls062286 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 10, 2016
    If thats what they were tryinh
    Also how is Luke in any way to blame for Kylo? Hed already turned before then so it sounds like Kylo is just using it as an excuse. Luke handled it the wrong way, but Kylo was already on the wrong path.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
  4. Jedi Jessy

    Jedi Jessy Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2016
    I really think Kylo knows Leia is alive. Leia felt Han's death as a big pain, Rey/Leia felt Luke's death... Kylo could feel if Leia was really dead (and Leia also felt Kylo's presence in some moments, he probably felt her presence in Crait)
     
    civilsecret likes this.
  5. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    Ben Solo also personally lead the attack himself. Given his unwillingness to kill Leia earlier and the fact that he’s now in charge I don’t think it’s unreasonable to imagine he might have had a change of heart if he saw her and made an exception for her as a prisoner of war and tried to explain his reasoning to her and tried to get her to join him, rather than outright kill her.

    And, no, I don’t say that as though that’s some nice thing for a son to do at all but despite his desire to wipe out the Resistance I can easily imagine him changing his mind and thinking that making her a prisoner (or in his words “A guest”) was suitable.

    Perhaps the extended edition will expand on this more?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2018
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  6. civilsecret

    civilsecret Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2016
    i think the movies should have the more important bits that relate to the character, not those bits relegated to books or comics with a smaller audience. a lot of the more i guess sadder parts of kylo back story is left out of the movies. i also dont buy kylo not knowing leia was on crait or not knowing she was alive. we have seen some moments with kylo where he is pure evil but evil nonetheless where it takes one step forward and then two steps backs, stuck in the same place never changing, does kylo grow as a person in a positive way, doesnt seem like it whereas the others do finn, poe and rey.
     
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  7. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    According to the junior novelization Leia is encouraged by Luke’s comment about how no one is ever really gone and takes the sign of the dice as a sign that he and Rey had indeed crossed paths in that moment and that while Luke isn’t the one who might inspire Ben Solo to be better and find a path back... that perhaps someone else still could be.
     
  8. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    I think what Ren demonstrates is that he will strike people down in order to prove his loyalty to the darkside/FO but that he has great difficulty with those he has no hatred for. That doesn't necessarily mean he necessarily can't. But it did not bring him what was promised. Naturally, doing the same thing and ignoring his feelings under false pretenses, is harder said than done. Leading the attack because it needed done is one thing. Pulling the trigger is another thing.
     
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  9. oncafar

    oncafar Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    I don't know if Kylo knows Leia is still alive. He couldn't feel her presence anymore after she was sucked into space. The Fry novelization never mentions him feeling it again.
     
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  10. B99

    B99 Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2014
  11. Mandalore the Ascendent

    Mandalore the Ascendent Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2017
    To be clear at the onset, this is not a discussion about Rey beating him in the first film or knocking him out in the second film. I more wanted to look at how he is depicted as a character in general. You can still have a very powerful and impressive villain who loses. For example Vader is foiled in the first film when his fighter gets shot into space. But we don't think less of him as a result.

    So, is Disney going with the assumption that this is a powerful badass character? Yes. Many characters talk about how powerful he is. He is Snokes apprentice, "the mighty Kylo Ren...a new Vader". Luke talks about how powerful he is, that "raw strength". Which means he is being described as a powerful character. Plus, all of Disneys advertising pushes him as this threat and their big main villain.

    The problem is that, almost from his first introduction and increasingly after this point he has been consistently undermined as a character. Every scene we see with him involved undercuts any statement Luke or Snoke makes about him being powerful. This is maybe not a problem whilst he is an apprentice. But it will certainly be a problem if we are meant to take him seriously as the self appointed warlord of the galaxy.

    When he first lands, we see him be very vader, stop a blaster bolt with the force and he later interrogates Po Dameron. These are pretty much the only examples where we are shown, rather than told that he is powerful. But even here we have a cocky Po Dameron get under his skin by making fun of his helmet. If he is supposed to be a powerful and terrifying villain like Vader then nobody would do that. This begins a recurring theme that he is a wannabe Vader. Rey notes this "you're afraid you aren't as strong as Vader" and Snoke "you're just a child in a mask".

    Now yes, that is an interesting character flaw. It does add a great deal of depth and motivation. He is one of the better characters for this reason. However, they go too far. They stress his weakness to the point where it stops being reasonable that he has the role in the story he does.

    - Why does Snoke keep Ren as his apprentice if he is clearly not in the same league as Vader? Why wouldn't he train another apprentice and dispose of the weaker tool?

    - How is he able to coerce and intimidate the First Order into following him if he is so weak willed and unable to command peoples respect? If he can't intimidate a Resistance pilot from making a glib remark about him?

    - How was Kylo able to overpower Luke and kill all the other Jedi students if he has all of these problems?

    - Why is this character important to the conflict between the FO and Resistance?

    - Even ignoring the fact that Rey has twice beaten Kylo Ren (once without him being injured), he is supposed to be this obstacle for her the hero to overcome. How can he be that if the overwhelming focus is on his failings and weakness as a person? That serves his character development but it actually diminishes her achievement in beating him.


    A key rule here is show, don't tell. We have to be constantly told that Kylo Ren is powerful without seeing him do anything to warrant this and being constantly shown exactly the opposite.

    Lets list what he does:

    - Stops a blaster bolt with the force
    - Can freeze people in place with the force
    - Can rip knowledge from peoples minds
    - Gets shot in the gut and doesn't die.
    - Is a pretty neat tie fighter pilot. (Which is more to do with the machine than the man)
    - Beats some of Snokes Praetorian Guard (which means nothing since the Praetorian Guard aren't built up. They're just red stormtroopers)

    None of this is particularly impressive. Its all generic stuff which you see Jedi/Sith do all the time in the films. Vader had the advantage of being the first Sith and oozed awesomeness the whole time he was on screen. If you have seen any video game or book then its hard to take any of this seriously.


    There are also many times where he is shown as weak or incompetent:

    - In TFA he lets Rey escape him; twice. He even throws a temper tantrum. In fact he has thrown several during both films. This childish behavior isn't intimidating, is at times used for laughs and it robs the character of any dignity. It shows he has no emotional control and if he lacks control then he cannot be powerful; complete contradiction.

    - He lets General Hux talk down to him and be condescending towards him for much of the series.

    - He falls for Lukes force projection trick. This makes him look like an idiot.

    - He makes silly decisions like sending away all of his Tie Fighters to chase the Falcon or having everyone stop the advance to shoot Skywalker. He then screams like a madman for them to kill him.


    Basically the films spend far too much time stressing how weak and stupid he is. In episode 9, he is supposed to be, presumably, the man who has conquered the galaxy, the most powerful dark side user and the man whose will is holding this empire together. But what we see is a weak, stupid and contemptible little man who only got power because hes the only force sensitive Snoke has and back stabbed his master. He has done nothing impressive or to warrant the claim that he is this dark side force prodigy. How is it going to be a big deal when Rey beats him (without handicap) in episode 9?
     
  12. vong333

    vong333 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 18, 2003
    Kylo is unbalanced and by the time we get to Episode 9 he will be very powerful. He has done some amazing things with the force and I think we will see him use both sides of the force by the last movie. Let me tell you, killing Snoke was a stroke of genius. It was what Anakin did not do to Palps. In my mind, Kylo is very powerful just unbalanced. Once he gets it together he will be very formidable to beat.
     
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  13. Mandalore the Ascendent

    Mandalore the Ascendent Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Dec 6, 2017
    You should be able to portray a character as full of rage and anger without making them appear weak and foolish. When you see Kylo scream "nooo" as he hacks apart a chair and some stormtroopers run away. Or yells "more!!!" when trying to get at Luke the problem is that this is petulant rage. Its the difference between seeing a Viking berserker go wreck some Saxons and a gamer smashing his xbox because he lost that match in CoD. Kylo is very much the latter and not the former.

    The precedent of two films is more indicative of where the story is going. For them to deviate from that and suddenly make him like Starkiller from Force Unleashed would be jarring after two films of establishing that he is a weak and stupid character.

    If Snoke hadn't put the lightsaber on his chair his "plan" wouldn't have worked. This was simple opportunism and a gamble that paid off. It required no more intelligence or planning. Its that moment in a Star Wars RPG where the overindulgent GM lets his characters get away with a plan they think is awesome but is really very stupid and anyone would see through it.

    But yeah I don't think Disney will make him more powerful. They have been extremely conservative with how powerful Jedi/Sith are and if anything have even pulled back from some of the more overt powers we saw in the prequels. Force jumps, integrating force push into fights, lightsaber throwing, blocking blaster bolts with lightsabers, the general speed and skill of the combatants. That's before you consider the non-canon, but really influential examples like The Force Unleashed or The Old Republic. So I think they consider what Kylo does to be the most powerful example of a force user in the galaxy with only more esoteric powers coming into play like force projection.
     
  14. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Kylo is a villain in formation.

    He is powerful, but very unbalanced. His mind is/was still divided.

    After TLJ, he is more focused. It seems he has accepted who he is.
     
    jaqen likes this.
  15. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Kylo's a collaborator with a genocidal state of Imperialists who is capable of anything if he believes it is necessary to fulfill his presumed destiny.

    It's an interesting character.
     
  16. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I know you put a lot of effort into the OP but this is actually a common discussion topic within the Kylo Ren topic that already exists.

    My take is pretty simple:

    A) He's developing as a villain.
    B) He's sneaky and manipulative.
    C) He's a Skywalker and has shown considerable powers already so he's strong enough.
    D) They may bring him back to the Light sooner than we think potentially if he's ousted and joins Rey and the two of them end up facing the Knights of Ren and Hux as the new villains in the end.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2018
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  17. Akane

    Akane Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 20, 2018
    The bold. I believe that he is strong and powerful, but his instability, his emotions and his internal conflict have led him to make wrong and stupid decisions that make him look weak. Kylo is a great character, but as a villain he is horrible, it is not a role that fits him well. He is bad, but he does not seem as bad as Palpatine [face_dunno]
     
  18. Ricardo Funes

    Ricardo Funes Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2015
    I wonder if there is anything in this thread that couldn't be discussed already in the existing Kylo thread.
     
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  19. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    The last thing Star Wars needs is a token boogieman villain. Kylo, and all of his imperfections, is so much better than that.
     
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  20. Jamtia

    Jamtia Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Apr 5, 2016
    Snoke was the terrifying and powerful villain that Kylo had yet to become up until the end of 8. I feel like we have yet to see his full potential with power with the dark side since he was so conflicted. But I feel like we could see the best of his power and strength in 9 if he uses the dark side like Anakin did in 3.

    The question is would he maintain that in 9? Like others say he is unbalanced and I think the confrontation that was supposed to happen with Leia and Kylo in 9 would have further went down that path. Now? Anything is fair game I suppose.
     
  21. leopardhk47

    leopardhk47 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2016
    First off, I don't think it's exactly fair to compare Prequel-era Jedi with Rey, Kylo, or OT Luke as they were formally trained in Force usage and lightsaber training and the Jedi were in a golden age. In the ST, a ton of knowledge has been lost presumably.
    Kylo is more conflicted than ever after TLJ in regards to Rey, Luke, and Leia, and nothing ****s up someone's connection to the Force more than spiritual conflict so I have my doubts about seeing a completely focused Kylo Ren. I also thought it was very strange that Rey was like "we HAVE to turn Kylo to end this war" when she had already beaten him twice, once mentally and another physically and so if anything should've been overconfident in her ability to best him.

    There's definitely a " show don't tell" problem going on with Kylo's power right now. And for a space opera not to have a threatening villain is a huge mistake
     
  22. zackm

    zackm Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    TIL OT Luke was formally trained in Force usage.
     
  23. leopardhk47

    leopardhk47 Jedi Padawan star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 23, 2016
    I meant neither Rey, Luke, or Kylo were formally trained with the knowledge of 1000 generations of Jedi teachings so there's a limit to the fancy stuff they're going to be able to do. Though Kylo was trained and Luke spent 2-3 years experimenting with the Force on his own between ANH and ESB and another 2 years training with Yoda between ESB and ROTJ.

    Both Kylo and Rey will benefit from a timeskip of 2 - 4 years.
     
  24. Gamma626

    Gamma626 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 6, 2014
    1. Because he's the grandson of Vader, and has enormous potential he hasn't reached yet. (Also Snoke may have a second hidden apprentice after all so we'll see on that one.)

    2. He hasn't coerced the First Order into following him. In TFA they follow Snoke. In TLJ Snoke is dead and they follow Ren via chain of command. This is absolutely something that will be explored in 9, given Hux already wants to oust him.

    3. He didn't do it alone. He had the six other students on his side. In fact, we might even learn that Kylo himself didn't even kill anyone. We have yet to have confirmation on that.

    4. I'm not even dignifying that one with a response.

    5. Who says that actually is the arc of the trilogy?

    You go into detail how everyone keeps trying the fit Ben into the Darth Vader box, then undermine your own dissection by trying to fit Ben into the Darth Vader box. Ben is not Darth Vader. This is not the same story, and he doesn't serve the same role. How this will end isn't known yet.
     
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  25. Talos of Atmora

    Talos of Atmora Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 3, 2016
    That would be hilariously bad.
     
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