ST Adam Driver (Kylo Ren) in the ST

See this is what I don't get. It's not the writer's job to avoid ambiguity that might compel a viewer to just pick a side.

Even though Vader is surely aware that his endurance as Sidious's apprentice is untenable, that he was seduced by false promise, he tries to manipulate his own son with things like, "Your destiny lies with me. Obi-Wan knew this to be true." which is an outright lie in the context of what Luke stands for and what Vader knows deep down inside. Plus it puts words in Obi-Wan's mouth that are certain to inflict fear, uncertainty and doubt, if not hurt. It would be a few years until all we got "You were right." and a further sixteen years before any definition was given to how it all came about. It makes Vader in ESB no less deplorable for what he tries to do to his son though does it? He essentially tells Luke, if you don't like this, blame Obi-Wan. Then ROTJ has Obi Wan admit to Luke, it's my fault and now you have to kill your father. It's our only hope. Cripes!

 

I was referring to Satale talking about her deplorable impression being a flaw in the writing.

It does not. They are accurate statements. It's the omission of the exact mitigating circumstances that has people electing to take a position. I'm glad we don't have the big three saying "But it wasn't my fault." Nor do we have them saying it's all their fault either.

 

PH is certainly of the opinion that both Anakin and Kylo are responsible for their own actions. Which I take as confirmation that such view is, at the very least, a reasonable one.

 

Frankly, saying the OT characters were not there enough for Ben to me it’s like saying “Joffrey Baratheon didn’t have enough attention from his father”. Which is a moot point for me, because all I saw was a spoiled brat, a narcissist, and evil guy who was completely different from his siblings and chose to be the way he was.

I don’t care about “possible reasons” for Kylo Ren, if the movie doesn’t convince me enough. All I see is concerned, loving parents who still want him back and a 30-year old manchild who had already two (in a row!) chances of redemption but chose to be evil. I ran out of sympathy for him.

 

I agree - JJ did a much better job with Kylo.

Thing is, by TLJ....there’s a lot going on it Kylo’s head that we’re deliberately not made privy to. Because Mystery!

 

I think it works still if you:

A) Hate him and want Rey to kill him.
B) Hope him to be redeemed.
C) Hope the only further Reylo stuff that occurs is at most Rey using his desire for her in a third wave feminist kind of way to defeat him.
D) Hope for more Reylo complications.
E) Don't have too much skin in the game but are still intrigued and hoping that whichever route is chosen ends up being fascinating and believable somehow.

Obviously, IX will close up some of those possibilities and leave some other people disappointed and at this point it's anyone's guess where it will go. I'm thankful to have some complications though and be truly unsure of where it's going to go next.

 

I’m hardcore Reysky, dead certain of Kylo’s redemption, and very unhappy with his portrayal in TLJ (vs TFA).

I think it was a sub-par portrayal (though I believe Adam is a wonderful actor) no matter who Rey. I believe TLJ effectively nuked Reylo from orbit, especially due to the dialogue meta and failure to adhere to the most basic principles of the “enemies to lovers” trope in movies aimed at kids.

(It may be in line with YA romance novels and long-running tv shows with tons of narrative space for decent redemption atcs. But SW is neither.)

 

But the failure to adhere to the trope in a way that is typical of movies aimed at kids really could just be a reflection of RJ being a bad writer, hence he decided to be inspired by YA dystopian fiction instead of the cartoon version of Beauty and the Beast.

 

I also feel like he blew whatever chance he might have had at one point, personally. He was too manipulative. He didn't accept her offer at redemption. It's his own fault. He'll never get a better opportunity than:

A) A force bridge that deceived them both.
B) A vision of the future that had her believing in him more.
C) Luke being as disillusioned as he was.
D) Her still not realizing that the hero she's been looking for in them is actually her.
E) Her still being as optimistic and naive and idealistic as only a 19 year old really can be.

He had his chance with her and he completely blew it. If he'd somehow accepted her offer and worked on his issues and they had Leia there as the mother who was happy to have him back and he and Rey joined up to take out the FO together it could have been fascinating.

He turned all that down for the throne though and the misguided belief that she would want an easier life ruling after her own hard life. His redemption will only come in death based on all of that, IMO. A sacrifice he'll make. Perhaps following an apology. Perhaps after he's saved Finn and told him to go to her if he truly loves her. Something like that is the closet thing I can imagine to redemption for him and then him going down with the ship or helping to destroy the FO.

 

A 12-year-old could more effectively write that trope. It isn’t bad writing - LFL approved this.

BatB is utterly different. Different genre, for one. Wholly different story and relationship structure. Focus almost entirely on the two leads, while the ST is - in Daisy’s words - more of an “ensemble.” And the Beast is merely unpleasant - not murderous. Which is a pretty huge deal. Also, in movies it becomes pretty clear to everyone pretty quickly that it’s “enemies to lovers.” Additionally, this is a SW movie. And aimed at kids. There should be no doubt at this point in the game that Rey and Kylo love/are romantically attracted to each other.

Tropes are portreyed differently in different mediums, and aimed at different audiences. They often can’t simply be transposed.

To find meaning in a SW movie, probably better to review other SW movies and the surrounding canon then, say, P+P (which I utterly adore but which bears no relation to the ST other than the element of a man and a women at odds learning to, perhaps, not dislike one another).

 

I would say that TFA and TLJ actually made a perfect set-up for classic enemies-to-lovers where another side needs to be an antagonist and an idiot. Disney's version of this trope aka BaB is just the most popular but doesn't follow "basic principles" because Beast is not evil and in the end the union between Beauty and Beast resolve just his personal conflict and tradegy.

But even BaB had that low moment after characters became closer when villain shows his worst behaviour.



Strange Magic by Lucas is more closer to classic trope and closer to Rey and Kylo.

Bog King is Evil Ruler or whatever, he is on the "dark side", has evil goal "to end love", Marianne is his prisoner and they literally fight each other. And the union between Marianne and Bog "I'll destroy her!" King is actually important for the bigger picture in the universe. Romance stuff here is not that sugar as in BaB for 2\3 story.



Whether it was done good and bad, the intent in TLJ was to make you question the nature/core of protag\antagonist relationship and how it will impact the future.

 

Those examples follow the trope. Rey/Kylo in the movies don’t. You don’t have the enemy LI commit patricide and mass murder onscreen and portrey him in a way that makes him extremely divisive to audiences.

You also don’t have a member of the SG talk about the pairing just like an “anti.” Actually, two members.

“Enemies to lovers” in a kids movies does not aim to make the “enemy” loathesome. They also make the sympathetic reasons behind the enemies’s negative actions obvious.

And, again, the trope is made facially evident to the audience early on. (Also, such movies don’t aim to give an initial impression that they’re related! Whether or not one thinks Rey is a Skywalker, it was pretty much universally a knowledged that a majority of the audience walked out of TFA thinking she is. Because JJ wanted them to. Because creating or encouraging audience impressions is a major part of a director’s job.)

“Effect on the audience” is a key consideration here.

 

Why you don't have the enemy doing everything Anakin done in the context of SW? Most kids movies didn't do the stuff what SW is doing for 40 years. SW is famous for playing out tropes 80 LVL, it's always over the top.

Members of SG never talked about Reylo like "antis". They are allowed to have preferences and Pablo, for example, hates villains like Anakin and Kylo. If Rey\Kylo is problematic from SG's point of view, they would have never compare it to BaB and speak about Kylo's proposal as love confession.

I was told on this board that impressions of some viewers prove nothing. So, you seriously can't tell what this big "audience" think. I have no idea why are you talking about Rey\Kylo romance as something that wasn't an impression of GA. Some people, yeah, don't care about it and didn't notice it. It's because the genre is different and the intent was to set-up a trope, not to play it full 100%.

There was absolutely nothing in TFA that gave an impression that Rey and Kylo are brother\sister or cousins. They don't know each other and Kylo's family doesn't have lost child and doesn't know Rey who wears her hair in specific way for all her life.

If TLJ's job was creating impression that Rey and Kylo are cousins, well, it failed more than creating impression that there is luv-luv between them.

 

1. The movies got Anakin and Padme together before he became evil.

2. The OT dictated that Anakin had to become evil and Padme had to die.

3. I never got the sense that the narrative wanted us to root for Padme staying with Anakin once he became child-slaying proto-Vader and hope he becomes good again.

Matt Martin said that Reylo was “potentially abusive” and PH mocked fans thinking a guy who tells a girl “You have no part in this story” are going to be paired romantically.

Oh, after TFA I saw/heard *plenty* of Reylos claiming they were a small minority. You might want to ask them about that impression.

Again - that’s not how that trope is set up in this context. TV show, maybe. YA novel, maybe. SW movie? No. Anakin/Padme and Han/Leia - there ya go. I’ve been informed that the Reylo romance in TLJ is entirely “subtext.” Which makes zero sense in the context of this franchise.

(Btw if there was supposed to be any romantic subtext in TFA and TLJ, you can be darned sure that, say, John Williams wouldn’t be Reysky...because that’s something he needs to know to do his job...)

Amazing, then, how such a large percentage of the audience - as both Reyskys and Reylos have vocally pointed out - got that impression anyway.

If you’d like a tl;dr examaple:

“That saber was Luke’s, and his father’s before him” = “ancestral weapon” trope (nothing else about it is noted as being special)

“Saber in the snow” = “sword in the stone” trope (and Arthur could pull the sword from the stone because....he was Uther’s son)

The movie suggests precisely one reason why the saber went to Rey. I’ve seen many GA said they thought Rey is Luke’s daughter “because the saber went to her” because they recognized those tropes.

Oh no - TLJ’s job was absolutely not to convince the audience that Rey is Luke’s daughter. TFA was the Promise - “Maybe Rey is Luke’s daughter!” TLJ was the Turn - “Wtf is she really nobody??”

And 9 will be the Prestige

To quote some meta from Rey, in response to Snoke’s “Skywalker, I assumed. Wrongly.”: “You underestimate Skywalker...”

Indeed.

 

Hm no he didn't do that! But he is mocking ReySky fans since TFA so...

You contradict yourself.

Why is it okay to make an "impression" that Rey is not Luke's daughter and not okay to make an "impression" that Rey\Kylo don't have a chance anymore.

Right, because LF decided that incest mainstream talk is good #misdirection like whole marketing pre-TLJ was #misdirection. When a director compare villain's speech to love confession - as something that he was thinking while creating a scene - it's over. It was an intent and he talked about it in that context and then again compared another scene to sex.

Please don't tell that the throne room after-battle scene mirrors more Luke and Vader than Anakin and Padme. Because it really isn't, it has just one element from OT scene.

Right, because Padme\Anakin is not this trope. We can't compare their relationship. You're talking about "enemies" in SW and I said that Kylo is the same type of villain as Anakin. SW movie-universe doesn't have example of enemies-to-lovers so comparisons can't be literal.

 

We’re still debating if Kylo and Rey are cousins?

This makes my head hurt so very much.

 

Rey is Kylo's clone: A THREAD

Rey and Kylo are both white, both has 2 eyes, 1 nose etc. Coincidence?

 

Beast: a bit of a jerk and an a**hole

Kylo Ren: an evil fascist dictator.

There's history of stories where the girl falls in love with a guy who is a jerk, but I've NEVER seen a story where the girl falls in love with a fascist dictator.

 

Yeah, I mean, some people are still trying to find understandable reasons why Rey should give flying **** about him.

Imagine that.

 

I suppose Best Buy is part of the Reylo Cabal too.